MegaMav

 

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Climate Zone: 5a

Its been quiet here for a while now so I'll post something for discussion.
I have a crab apple out in front of my house that I would like to convert over to a 4 variety tree.
Im in Zone 5a/5b right on the line.
This tree now gets full sun, about 8 hours worth.

I've been thinking about varieties to graft onto it next year or over the course of a few years.

Calville Blanc D'hiver - This one is a must, it made a great pie last year. Bought the apples from an orchard about 45 minutes south of here. It would do well where I am. This is the only variety im unwilling to give up on.

Spigold - Never had one, but ive heard good things and its native to this area. I'll have to try one in the fall since a couple of orchards have them, but they're late season, so most orchards close their doors in November when these are picked.

Suncrisp - Maybe, I had a few of these, they were picked too early, but were still very good, just crisp and tart.

Akane - My girlfriend likes these,, they're crisp and sweet like fruit punch when picked, not a keeper, but would be a nice early apple to have.

Freyberg - This is purely going off of Scott Smith's praise of this apple. Sounds like a more tart Sweet 16. I think it would compliment my Kidd's Orange Red tree well, same type of parents, different interpretation and presentation.

Abbondanza - Another Scott Smith, not sure how well these hold up to a lot of sun, Scott mentioned they do well in shade for him.

Empress - Since I like Jonamac so much... Not sure where I'd find wood for this one, but it sounds like a stronger flavored Jonamac.

Ellison's Orange - Unique, but probably not my first choice. If I HAD to put a unique graft on, I'd probably pick this one or the Empress.

Golden Delicious - OK, you think im nuts, but I had a bunch of these fresh off the tree, into cold storage at 40 degress for 6 weeks, and it was probably the most popping, juicy dessert apple I had on the season. Not a likely candidate just because they're so prevalent, but it is worth noting.

Varieties I've talked myself out of: Northern Spy, Golden Russet, Jonathan, Ashmead's Kernel, Newtown Pippin.

Anyone with experience like to comment on any of these?
Im open to different alternatives as well.

Axel

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Calville Blanc D'hiver is a good breeding apple, but I think there are much better pie apples out there than this one. Northern Spy is excellent and a much better cooker. I would also take Belle De Boscoop over Calville Blanc. My best pie apple so far has been Pettingill which would do very well in Zone 5 even if it originated in Long Beach, California.

Spigold is terrible, I don't really like it, tends towards getting mealy too easily.

Suncrisp is ok, a better Summer apple is william's pride.

I agree with Scott Smith Freyberg is excellent, nice anise flavor and it's a precocious tree. And Abbondanza is also good.

I've never heard of or tasted Empress. Ellison's Orange is very anise flavored, to the point that it can be downright medicinal tasting. But under the right conditions it tastes like licorice. But if you're looking for anise flavored apples, I'd recommned Milo Gibson, Merton Delight, Cellini, or Doctor Mathews. The latter is also a recommendation from Scott Smith.

If you don't want to loose your marbles, instead of growing Golden Delicious, why don't you grow razor russet, that is a golden delicious variant that is russeted. it's more interesting and better flavored than golden delicious.

MegaMav

 

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Climate Zone: 5a

Axel wrote:Calville Blanc D'hiver is a good breeding apple, but I think there are much better pie apples out there than this one. Northern Spy is excellent and a much better cooker. I would also take Belle De Boscoop over Calville Blanc. My best pie apple so far has been Pettingill which would do very well in Zone 5 even if it originated in Long Beach, California.

Spigold is terrible, I don't really like it, tends towards getting mealy too easily.

Suncrisp is ok, a better Summer apple is william's pride.

I agree with Scott Smith Freyberg is excellent, nice anise flavor and it's a precocious tree. And Abbondanza is also good.

I've never heard of or tasted Empress. Ellison's Orange is very anise flavored, to the point that it can be downright medicinal tasting. But under the right conditions it tastes like licorice. But if you're looking for anise flavored apples, I'd recommned Milo Gibson, Merton Delight, Cellini, or Doctor Mathews. The latter is also a recommendation from Scott Smith.

If you don't want to loose your marbles, instead of growing Golden Delicious, why don't you grow razor russet, that is a golden delicious variant that is russeted. it's more interesting and better flavored than golden delicious.

Belle De Boscoop, whats better about that apple over Calville Blanc?
Empress is an August apple, an orchard 20 minutes from me has it, I will have to try it when the season is upon us.
Ellison's Orange, i'll probably pass, but it was on my list.
Freyberg is strongly considered based on what I've read.
Spigold, based on your ripening season you've talked about in the past give me the sense that it would do well for you, being that "november" harvest apple around here. I'll have to reconsider, but will try it this fall/winter.

Thanks Axel for your additional recommendations, I have noted them, and I'll look into them. You're always a great help.

-Eric

scottfsmith

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Hi Eric, what a coincidence, you name several of my favorites

Abbondanza is indeed one of my favorites. It needs to hang super long or its not all that good. Since it reddens early the natural temptation is to pick far too early. I think Axel is the only other person I have heard that has tried it, and I would be curious if anyone else had tried it. I grafted over another tree to it so I could get more of them. It is unbelievably reliable and easy to grow.

Freyberg is my favorite apple so I can't complain about that choice either.

I haven't gotten any apples off my Spigold yet, but have heard enough negative information that I would not try it.

I also agree with Axel on Suncrisp, I have not had many but was not wowed.

Golden Delicious is an excellent apple, the bad name comes from the poor grocery store versions. I agree try Razor Russet for a more intense experience.

I haven't paid enough attention to which apples make the best pie, usually we throw many varieties into one pie. At one point I cooked several varieties side by side and compared and Blenheim Orange was my favorite; Bramley was also very good. I didn't have any Calville Blanc to compare (my CB has died several times, its not a lucky variety for me).

I would also consider Gold Rush, Reine des Reinettes (also a great cooker) and Nonpareil.

MegaMav

 

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Climate Zone: 5a

Scott,

Fireblight with Calville Blanc?
I think after this fall, if I can get to the orchards I want to, I'll have a good idea how much I want to graft in the fall. Hopefully the orchards will be open to me asking for wood if I cant get it elsewhere, like Empress. I've never asked, so we'll see how it goes.

scottfsmith

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Eric, I don't know what killed my original CB but it was a root-related issue not directly involving the scion. The next try got munched by deer. Since it is an heirloom French apple I would be concerned by FB and my latest graft did get nipped by FB this spring. About half of my heirloom French apples are susceptible to FB. Abbondanza is bulletproof; Freyberg gets affected but it doesn't look like a strike, it gets darkened patches on leaves. It never amounts to much. Don't get a Berlepsch, I am adding that one to my ridiculous FB list (along with Canada Reinette) since it has been a continual problem.

Scott

Axel

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Scott, I've not had fireblight issues with berlepsch but my Ernst Bosch and Ananas Reinette have gotten it even though we have very little fireblight here.

BTW, I don't think MegaMav wants input as to what to grow, he's already made up his mind. Nothing is as good as first hand experience anyway.

MegaMav

 

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Climate Zone: 5a

We'll see where I stand after this fall.
I dont have anywhere to go around here to try Freyberg and Abbondanza, so I may reach out to you for wood sometime in the winter months if you wouldnt mind Scott. I'd be willing to compensate you for your trouble.

My tasting tour of driving distance orchards for the August/September/October months. I thought I'd include the varieties im targeting at each orchard.

Alyson's Orchard - Walpole, NH - Reine des Reinette, Belle De Boscoop, Ginger Gold, Hudson's Golden Gem, Karmijn de Sonnaville, Sansa, Winter Banana.

Borden's Orchard - Schaghticoke, NY - Empress, Ginger Gold, Winter Banana

Indian Ladder Farms - Altamont, NY - Esopus Spitzenberg, Liberty, Sweet 16, Wolf River, Goldrush, Cox's Orange Pippin.

Montgomery Place Orchards - Annandale-on-Hudson, NY - Belle De Boscoop, Cox's Orange Pippin, Esopus Spitzenberg, Hudson's Golden Gem, Kidd's Orange Red, Pittmaston Pineapple, Sansa, Spigold, Suncrisp.

Scott Farm - Dummerston, VT - Reine des Reinette, Belle De Boscoop, Calville Blanc, Hudson's Golden Gem, Orleans Reinette, Wolf River, Karmijn de Sonnaville, Esopus Spitzenberg.

Samascott Orchards - Kinderhook, NY - Calville Blanc, Esopus Spitzenberg, Ginger Gold, Sansa, Spigold, Suncrisp, Cox's Orange Pippin.

Bowman Orchards - Rexford, NY - Sansa, Ginger Gold, Jonamac, Spigold, Suncrisp

I know a lot of these apples dont ripen at the same time, so I'll have to pick my spots.
Some of the orchards are closer to me than others, so I'll be going back multiple times for the different varieties they have.
Scott Farm has a huge heirloom tasting event every Columbus day weekend, that should be a fun weekend with Alyson's orchard fairly close to Scott Farm.

Any of those varieties spark you guys?
Axel, im open to suggestions, any "cant miss" im all for.
Even at the expense of my "sure thing" Calville Blanc.
This crab apple will become a frankentree.

Axel

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I think you are doing the right thing by going to taste these apples yourself. Just keep in mind that each apple has its prime ripening time, and if you hit it before or after, it won't be that great. Many of the heirlooms actually also need some storage time before they taste any good. For example, belle de boscoop is not edible off the tree, but is really good by late December out of storage.

Out of your orchard list, the ones that are on my list of favorites include Hudson's Golden Gem, Karmijn de Sonnaville, Sansa, reine des reinettes and Orleans Reinette. But each apple will be totally different depending on climate and soil. So you can't really predict accurately.

Apples that you have not mentioned that you should try to taste in zone 5 are:

- Gravenstein
- viking
- william's pride
- Fiesta
- champagne reinette
- Zestar (ripens in August yet stores super well for 10 months or so)
- Haralson
- Coconut crunch
- orin
- Pinova
- Elstar
- Alkmene
- Geheimrat Doctor Oldenburg (not to be confused with Dutchess of Oldenburg)
- king david
- Sinta (really tasty pineapple flavor)

MegaMav

 

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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:16 pm

Climate Zone: 5a

I think you are doing the right thing by going to taste these apples yourself.

Yes! Thanks! I figured the Orleans Reinette and Kidd's Orange Red that I planted WITHOUT tasting were cant misses based on reputation. I have so many options with grafting this seedling crab apple, that I want to get it right, even if I only graft 2 "gotta have" varieties and just split the tree, Im not going to keep torturing the tree by cleft grafting it every year or two.

Just keep in mind that each apple has its prime ripening time, and if you hit it before or after, it won't be that great. Many of the heirlooms actually also need some storage time before they taste any good. For example, belle de boscoop is not edible off the tree, but is really good by late December out of storage.

I bought a 7 cu ft. digital temperature controlled chest freezer and I'm compartmentalizing it out for different varieties. I estimate I can fit about 350+ apples in it, so I'll be testing for taste throughout the ripening times in the fall. I'll be reading internet and book notes as well.

Out of your orchard list, the ones that are on my list of favorites include Hudson's Golden Gem, Karmijn de Sonnaville, Sansa, reine des reinettes and Orleans Reinette.

You guys have me really thinking twice about Calville Blanc and switching it out for Reine des Reinettes. Gotta taste it, and I have 2 shots in 1 weekend. It will be tough to beat the Calville Blanc and California Granny Smith pie my girlfriend made. It was near orgasmic to be honest.

each apple will be totally different depending on climate and soil.

For the record, my soil is sandy with a really deep water table. After a heavy rainstorm, foot deep pools of water in holes around my yard from trees being taken out have drained in less than 15 minutes.

native pH average is 6.4.
Compost is Coast of Maine - Lobster Quoddy Mix, pH 6.6.

I can get a Gravenstein to taste sometime, havent had the chance in the past, but one or two of the orchards should have them, but you've warned me in the past about target harvest season. Im avoiding the true russets and heavily russeted varieties out there just because I really dont get enough sun to reach their usual late potentials. Kidd's Orange Red is a reach, but that site gets the most sun.

Not too many of the apples you list there look familiar based on what I've seen around here, but I will keep the list. Girlfriend ate a Pinova that had been in the fridge a month, and it was bitter, not a huge fan of them. We've also had them off the tree, and they were OK, tastes a lot like the variety Ambrosia, but with a weird skin taste to them. A lot of orchards here do not advertise their full list, only the mainstream varieties.

Thanks again, you're always a great help.