Casimiroa pringlei "Pringle's Zapote"
"Large shrub to 15' with evergreen trifoliate foliage producing a spicy fragrance when crushed and unusual orange edible fruits resembling loquats in mid to late summer. Wonderful host for the yellow, swallowtail butterfly. Full sun, any soil, average moisture. "
Very intriguing, I can't find any information about this plant anywhere else.
There is a whole plethora of medical research articles about the virtues of the medicinal properties of C. pringlei. But there is nothing about the flavor of the fruit.
I'll keep everyone posted as to how this plant grows here in the Santa Cruz mountains.
The following thread was started by Axel on April 13, 2010 at 12:49 am PST
If you have old Fruit Gardeners:
http://crfg.org/fg/1992/nov-dec.html
We don't even know if it is edible. Remember that White Sapote is also known as "Sleepy Fruit" because its a soporific. This may be more so. Its medicinal, but it may be toxic for eating out of hand.
The above followup was added by Jason (z17, Palo Alto) on April 13, 2010 at 1:28 pm PST.
It's definitely edible. maybe 15 years ago, Shawn or I had some correspondence with an elderly gentleman in southern Texas who grew and ate them. I think the fruit is not as desireable as C.edulis (size and flavor), but it has long been thought to be a worthy project to breed this with edulis to increase the cold-hardiness. I've got that correspondence, plus some other notes collected from various places, on C.pringlei. I also had a conversation with a Mexican academic horticulturalist about breeding these with edulis. He hadn't done so, but thought it should be possible and worthwhile.
The above followup was added by Tom A. on April 13, 2010 at 5:35 pm PST.
Way cool Axel, have heard of this plant but never saw a picture, that would be a great project for someone to hybridize it. Looking forward to your growing experience.
The above followup was added by Scotty in A.G. on April 13, 2010 at 8:16 pm PST.
If it grows well, I will try to do some crosses. It looks like it could be grafted right onto edulis, so when it gets big enough, I will be glad to share some wood for others to try to graft.
The above followup was added by Axel on April 13, 2010 at 8:54 pm PST.
Tom,
Do you have any contact info for the people in Texas that you were communicating with about the C.pringlei? I have search all over Texas for info and growers. I was only able to find one source for C.pringlei. I also plan to cross C.pringlei with C.edulis since I am growing both. The person that I got the C.pringlei from said that their tree survived
4 F in 1989!
Thanks,
Ed Self
Katy, Texas
The above followup was added by Ed Self on April 14, 2010 at 3:34 am PST.
Could prove to be a very interesting acquisition for you guys. Please put me on 'the list' for scion wood whenever it becomes available.
I wonder how many other edible casimiroas there are?
-Ethan
The above followup was added by Ethan-Bakersfield 9/9 on April 14, 2010 at 1:57 pm PST.
If I can get my plants to grow well this year then I should have wood to share in the fall and spring.
Thanks,
Ed Self
Katy, Tx
The above followup was added by Ed Self on April 14, 2010 at 2:56 pm PST.
I have tried to get in touch with CRFG about the back issue that has the article about Casimiroa pringlei. They have not responded to my email. I was wondering if someone could scan the article in the Fruit Gardener issue:
http://crfg.org/fg/1992/nov-dec.html and email it to me or sale me their copy?
Thanks,
Ed Self
Katy, Tx
The above followup was added by Ed Self on April 17, 2010 at 3:10 pm PST.
I may be able to get a copy if the university near by has that issue. They have a lot, but not everyone. I can check Monday if no one else comes forward.
The above followup was added by Brian on April 17, 2010 at 3:17 pm PST.
Ed, my fruit magazine collection goes back to the late 80's, I think I may have this issue. If I do, I will scan it and E-mail it to you.
The above followup was added by Axel on April 19, 2010 at 1:29 pm PST.
Thanks Axel! I am mainly interested in the article about Casimiroa pringlei. However, will gladly take the complete issue!
Thank s for your help!
Ed Self
Katy, Texas
The above followup was added by Ed Self on April 19, 2010 at 3:55 pm PST.
I can't get it because my local university is missing the early 90's. A search showed that UC Santa Cruz, UC Davis, and UC Riverside seem to have subscriptions running through the 90's so if someone has access to those libarys they can probably get it on the chance Axel doesn't have it
The above followup was added by Brian on April 19, 2010 at 11:22 pm PST.
Ed, I have the article, and will scan it in for you. it's a nice edition with lots of white sapote information. I can definitely scan the article, the rest of the magazine will have to wait, too much going on right now.
The above followup was added by Axel on April 20, 2010 at 8:55 am PST.
If you can scan that article and email it to me that would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Ed Self
Katy, Tx
The above followup was added by Ed Self on April 20, 2010 at 1:30 pm PST.
A little off topic...
The San Francisco botanical garden library (Strybing Arboretum) carry extensive collection of the Fruit Gardener magazine going back to 70's at least. It is free to visit & browse.
The above followup was added by atc (sunnyvale) on April 20, 2010 at 5:31 pm PST.
I was the person who got the letter from that old guy in Texas. I suspect he is deceased by now. I will have to dig out that letter if I still have it and scan it.
I too believe crossing C.P. and C.E will be interesting. I am looking forward to learning was C.P. is like, and awaiting the NorCal CRFG seed distribution chain in the future...
-Shawn
in SF
The above followup was added by Shawn on April 20, 2010 at 10:11 pm PST.
Shawn,
I would be interested in seeing the letters about C.pringlei. I am now growing C.pringlei and C. Edulis. So I am very interested in info about any work or potential crosses of the two.
Thanks,
Ed Self
Katy, Tx
The above followup was added by Ed Self on April 22, 2010 at 4:07 am PST.
Axel,
Did you ever get a chance to scan that article?
Thanks,
Ed
Katy, Tx
The above followup was added by Edward Self on April 28, 2010 at 7:57 pm PST.
Ed, it's not a really great article, it has little info in it besides what you already know. I will scan it in and send it to you this week.
The above followup was added by Axel on May 03, 2010 at 11:28 am PST.
at Peckerwood Gardens:
http://www.peckerwoodgarden.org/support/seeds/casimiroa-pringlei
They just harvested seed yesterday. They are located just NW of Houston.
Ed seems to be the expert among us. . . Any tips for:
germination?
years to first flower (to determine sex of individual plants, as they are dioecious)
Success with cuttings?
Taste of fruit?
Ease of crossing with C. edulis?
Thanks
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on July 27, 2010 at 10:42 am PST.
John,
I just got my plants this year. They look just like White Sapote plants except the mature trees are only in the 12 to 15 feet tall range. Also the fruit are just a little bigger than an average size loquat fruit. Also the seed source tree has survived temps down to 4 F! That is the part that I like! I am visiting the nursery next week to sample the fruit and take some photos. So I should be able to provide more info next week!
The above followup was added by Ed Self Katy, Tx on July 27, 2010 at 11:18 am PST.
John
based strictly on experience with Casimiroa edulis, my guess is germination should be easy for seed that is fresh. When the seed inside the seedcoat has shriveled, it likely is too old to germinate. So plant your seeds quickly. I wouldn't use a heated/high humidity propagation chamber, but would sow outside in a root trainer/deep pot. I think cuttings will be very difficult, although a low percentage might work in very controlled ideal conditions. I'd guess semi-hardwood cuttings, not dormant, and not very green. I think the hope is certainly that it should be possible to cross with edulis, but we need someone to try! In California, edulis is hardy enough places that there's not much incentive for us to try. Texans have an incentive there that we don't. I think typical pringleii fruit is maybe 1" to 1.5" in diameter, and edible, so not as good as edulis, but the greater cold hardiness is the attraction of the cross. Let us know how they do!
The above followup was added by Tom A. on July 27, 2010 at 11:23 am PST.
I wrote my response above Ed while you were posting, so didn't see it before writing the post. Definitely let us know what you think of the fruit flavor!
The above followup was added by Tom A. on July 27, 2010 at 11:25 am PST.
Can they ship to CA? Just asking since it is citrus.
The above followup was added by Brian on July 27, 2010 at 9:39 pm PST.
Brian,
the California quarantine on citrus is outlined here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4pvgHBF9GIYJ:ccnb.info/ccnb/page.asp%3Fs%3D3%26c%3D8+rutaceae+seed+restrictions+california&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
from my reading of the regulations:
No citrus or any Rutaceae family plants/seeds are allowed from Florida, while only seeds are allowed from other places, except by special permit. Citrus fruit is allowed from Florida and Texas under permit.
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on July 27, 2010 at 10:23 pm PST.
I tried to buy seeds from this site and, despite their own page saying that shipping would be $4.00 no matter how may seeds ordered, one selection cost $6.00 in shipping. That ain't right.
The above followup was added by Merbert on July 28, 2010 at 9:23 am PST.
Merbert, I suggest you email them to let them know, it could be just an innocent omission during a webpage update.
Though inconsistencies on any web site are unacceptable (wrong), we are only talking about a couple of bucks here. I ordered seeds myself and never saw anything about $4 shipping, I only saw the $6 shipping calculated.
Shipping and processing is commonly $5 (USPS Priority) for many things I buy online.
I feel that the prices at Peckerwood Gardens are reasonable, considering they are selling one of the most rare fruit tree seeds native to North America (NW Mexico). Try finding information on C. pringlei from anywhere else, let alone fresh seeds of them- for any price.
These seeds are definitely for collectors, and folks who like to experiment, as who knows what the edibility is? Perhaps after several years we will have seen the value of this initial investment of $ for the seeds from TX. In my mind those seedlings will also take many hours of time to care for, which ends up being much more 'costly' than the original seeds, even with an extra $2.
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on July 28, 2010 at 10:20 am PST.
John, you have put the matter into perspective. Right or wrong, website error or not, I shouldn't quibble over $2.00. It's just that I was going to purchase more varieties from them when I saw the bargain shipping price.
The above followup was added by Merbert on July 28, 2010 at 2:07 pm PST.
Thank's for posting Peckerwood Garden site, I just ordered a bunch of seeds C.pringlei of course. And yes Merbert the total ship was $6.00. Looking forward to talking with you again a Festival of Fruit John.
The above followup was added by Scotty in A.G. on July 28, 2010 at 8:42 pm PST.
10 per packet. They look just like C. edulis, but just a miniature version- each seed just 1/2 inch long.
I was a bit disappointed that they were sent regular mail ($1.48 postage), but I am still thrilled at the prospects of a more cold hardy Casimiroa.
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on August 03, 2010 at 10:03 pm PST.
Interesting that they sent them regular postage. I inquired about the $6.00 charge despite the note on the website stating that the charge would be $4.00 no matter how many seeds were ordered and they were somewhat like, "Oh, we forgot to take that off. Do you want the seeds or not?"
The above followup was added by Merbert on August 04, 2010 at 8:54 am PST.
I am surprised at the complaining about $6 to ship seeds. It is hard to find places that will ship quality seeds or plants. I know from experience that I have paid more than $6 for shipping and handling for seeds. Then the seeds do not even sprout. In addition, I know it is very hard to find parties willing to ship seeds or plants from CA to Texas or Texas to CA much less for $6. I would gladly pay $6 shipping and handling to get seeds that are not readily available in the market. This is a small family business and I do not think they intend to make a fortune off the shipping and handling of seeds. I also imagine that occasionally they do not have their website 100% accurate. I have also seen that on many other websites.
The above followup was added by Ed Self Katy, Texas on August 04, 2010 at 9:27 am PST.
Yipee, got my seeds today from Peckerwood C. pringlei and some hardy cactus & dyckia.
The above followup was added by Scotty in A.G. on August 04, 2010 at 8:01 pm PST.
Planted my seeds today. I've got flowers on a grafted McDill but don't recall reading comments from anyone who has grown a white sapote from seed and fruited it. Any idea how long it might take to get flowers from these new seedlings?
Maybe I could devote a small corner somewhere on my farm to run a test plot of new hybrids the rest of the group here may come up with.
The above followup was added by HarveyC on August 05, 2010 at 10:49 pm PST.
Harvey, It took my Rainbow seedling about 12yrs. before it fruited but it also got set back by a couple of yrs. of hard freeze. So I know of other friends who had set on trees as young as 8yrs. Let's hope this C. pringlei come in sooner.
The above followup was added by Scotty in A.G. on August 06, 2010 at 7:39 pm PST.
HarveyC, I have several edulis seedlings the first of which threw a few flowers this year, it's almost 10 years old from germination. I guess it wont get into a full on flowering cycle for another year or two. Still waiting on the others
The above followup was added by Jason on August 07, 2010 at 3:04 am PST.
Guess I'll have to be patient and maybe try to speed some up with a longer growing season in my greenhouse.
John, Axel, Jason of Palo Alto, and I discussed this again today during a lunch break at the tissue culture workshop. I'm hoping for a taste report from Ed very soon to help give an idea on the merits of this fruit on its own. Still, I would like to play with breeding with it one day when I'm an even older guy with more sore joints.
The above followup was added by HarveyC on August 07, 2010 at 10:23 pm PST.
I have been in Florida since last Wednesday. I just got home today. I did not get to taste the fruit last week! I had to go out of town before I made it over to Peckerwood. They are about 2 hours from my house one way. I am suppose to meet up with them in the morning to taste the fruit! I hope to have a report tomorrow afternoon 9/10!
Thanks,
Ed Self
Katy, Texas
The above followup was added by Ed Self Katy, Texas on August 09, 2010 at 5:18 pm PST.
I was able to try 2 different fruit at Peckerwood Gardens. One was the Texas Native Persimmon and the other was the Casimiroa pringlei . The Persimmon actual tasted pretty good! The only problem is that it is really seedy but a pretty evergreen tree! The Casimiroa pringlei tasted like a tart plum but we did have to pick them on the green side to beat all the critters to the fruit. I believe properly ripen they should have a nice plum flavor!
Anyway My main interest is using Casimiroa pringlei as a rootstock for White Sapote. Since Casimiroa pringlei is hardy down into the single digits F I would hope that if they are graft compatible that it would increase the cold hardiness of White Sapote.
Yes, I have been trying the fruit the past couple days and the bitterness is still present. The guy who gave me the tour at Peckerwood Gardens said the bitterness is not present when the fruit fully ripens on the tree and falls to the ground. The fruit that I was able to harvest was picked from the tree. I also posted more photos in the Texas Rarefruit Growers yahoo photo album under Casimiroa pringlei.
The above followup was added by Ed Self Katy, Tx on August 12, 2010 at 8:54 am PST.
I was able to find 2 of the people from the CRFG article about Casimiroa pringlei that are here in Texas one was deceased and the other one had Casimiroa pringlei plants forsale and he told me about another person closer to my house that has a fruiting plant and plants for sale. So I will be trying to locate that tree next week and taste the fruit! I am still trying to locate William Chapman that actually wrote the article!
The above followup was added by Ed Self Katy, Tx on August 12, 2010 at 9:22 am PST.
Ed, thank's for follow up on C. pringlei keep us informed on your continued quest!
The above followup was added by Scotty in A.G. on August 12, 2010 at 7:16 pm PST.
Glad you could follow up on the articles I sent you from the '92 Fruit Gardener.
Please keep us updated.
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on August 14, 2010 at 6:47 am PST.
Yes Thanks Axel, Ed and to you also John. We are trialing them on the East side of the valley in Sunset zones14 and 9. Rec'd the seeds on the 5th and the largest ones started sprouting on the 12th with bottom heat, very exciting! :)
The above followup was added by Carole...East of Modesto sunset zone9 on August 15, 2010 at 12:56 am PST.
Yes Carole, mine are starting to sprout too!
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on August 16, 2010 at 9:19 am PST.
hi i am new here just wana say hi to all members
The above followup was added by starringmoviesj on August 24, 2010 at 12:06 am PST.
wow!
The above followup was added by joe fernandez on August 24, 2010 at 4:50 pm PST.
Where is this plant?
The bunches of pink flowers it gets are really awesome too.
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on August 24, 2010 at 5:05 pm PST.
do we need a new thread started here?
The above followup was added by John Valenzuela on August 24, 2010 at 5:07 pm PST.
wow!
The above followup was added by joe fernandez on August 24, 2010 at 5:08 pm PST.
we sure do need another thread.
The above followup was added by joe fernandez on August 24, 2010 at 5:10 pm PST.
Well I found the tree that is growing about 20 miles from my home! It was covered with fruit based on the huge amount of seeds covering the ground! The tree only had one fruit left on it! I was forced to pick the only semi green fruit! It tasted very similar to the one that I tried at Peckerwood Gardens. Which really was not a surprise since this tree was the seed source for the one growing at Peckerwood Gardens! This small nursery that has this Casimiroa pringlei growing on the property had some nice looking plants growing in 3 gallon pots for sale so I had to buy a couple of them! Any way I have located all three of the Texas guys from the 1992 article:
Will Fleming - He lives about 1/2 mile from Peckerwood Gardens and has a small nursery
Lynn Lowery - He passed away about 10 years ago. His daughter and son-in-law operate the small nursery that is about 20 miles from my home. Also the location of the original Casimiroa pringlei tree.
William Chapman - He passed away August 11, 2010 @ 83.5 years old. I was tasting the Casimiroa pringlei fruit August 10, 2010. I am trying to get in touch with his son to see if they have any of the Casimiroa pringlei trees planted at their place.
That is about it for now. I did attempt a few grafts last week of Santa Cruz White Sapote onto Casimiroa pringlei root stock. I will let all of you know how they work out.
Thanks,
Ed Self
Katy, Texas
The above followup was added by Ed Self Katy, Texas on August 24, 2010 at 9:29 pm PST.