I find myself someone dismayed when I drive around a certain area and see nothing but the oregon/temperate look because that is what home builders plant in all these expanding california suburbs..
in my neighborhood, mine is the yard that looks tropical and a few others in the 'hood have planted sagos or birds of paradise and fans. Two neighborhoods away, plenty of queens, bananas and assorted tropicals and sub-tropicals. To each their own, I say. I'm not saying everyone in california should be a palm or tropical fruit nut---but I am able to grow a lot of this stuff because I am in a mediterranean/temperate climate...and I wish people, at least in central and northern cal--would realize the vast array of offerings in which they could indulge....not just "plant a pine tree and a maple tree" mentality.

The above followup was added by RON on April 30, 2002 at 0:55 am PST.

The term "tropical plant" refers to a vast array of plants we can't even begin to list on this board. But what can or cannot be grown in a specific climate is purely a function of the plant, and it's adaptability.

GIven there are folks who grow what we might call "tropicals" outdoors in New York, it's pretty safe to say that yes, (some) so called "tropical" plants can be grown outdoors outside of the tropics.

But it turns out that as far as perennials are concerned, it's safe to say that there are relatively few "true" tropicals, (e.g. plants requiring hot, lowland tropical conditions with temperatures that rarely drops below 64F) that will actually grow in California. As Jeff said, California is not even close to tropical. Head to Florida, and you have tropical 95% of the time. In California, outside of the Sierra and the desert, it's highland tropical temperate 95% of the time, and some areas might experience close to true tropical conditions for maybe 15% of the time at most.

Most of the "tropical" plants we grow and can grow well count as either subtropical, or highland tropical. We can't grow most of the other stuff. Subtropical, by definition, means the plant can endure some limited chill and even below freezing temperatures without dying. Highland tropical means the plant can endure and even prefers chill and cool temperatures, but not necessarily below freezing temperatures.

True tropicals are those plants that require temperatures above 64F most of the time and can tolerate an occasional dip into the 50's. So technically speaking, if you think you can grow tropicals in the Central Valley, than yes, you are in true zone denial. In laymen's terms, on the other hand, given that most folks don't know the distinction in regards to "tropical", it's pretty safe to say that yes, you can grow tropicals in the Central Valley.

It's also safe to say that most real gardeners are pretty much aware of a number of "tropicals" that can be grown in a number of microclimates in the state. Sunset is the accepted standard, and is your safest bet. And Sunset hardly promotes an East Coast landscape. None of that awful, boring landscaping you see even in Southern California even comes close to "Oregonian", that would be an insult for Oregon. Rather, it's an attempt at emulating the Northeast. And it doesn't come from Sunset.

My only disatisfaction with Sunset is the lack of edibles. They cover a few, but in general it's geared towards ornamental landscaping. Other than that, it's a great reference promoting West Coast Natives, mediteranean and tropical species great for our gardens. Sunset recommends Kentia palms and Norfolk pines for zone 17. They recommend white sapote and avocados for zones 9,14,15,16.

Now here's a fun one: what is the most "anti-tropical", or "anti-southwestern" plant around? I nominate the European Birch tree as the ultimate winner.

While the birch might seem like a boring tree, it does have some interestin history. See the link below.

Jeff, how about adding a European birch tree to your garden? That would look great next to your bananas.

Axel

• The Mythology and Folklore of the Birch

Something tells me that clearifying this will lead to an argument....hopefully it doesn't.

1.The tropics is a specific region on the earth. Defined as between the Tropics of Capricorn and Cancer.

2. A tropical climate is a climate where among other things, there is an absence of cold temperatures and the MEAN TEMPERATURE of the coolest month is above 64f

3. A tropical plant is defined as being type of plant indigenous to the tropical regions.

But really??? Think about it... is there a such things as false tropical? NO ...Then there can be no such thing as a true tropical, even though we might use the phrase to define a plant or palm that has tropical climate requirements.

These definitions are more than just splitting hairs over a term...

Most tropicals are fairly hardy...Some taking temps as low as the teens ( Dypsis decipiens and Mexican avocadoes are hardier ...tropical examples)

In fact , most plants that come from the tropics, don't even require a tropical climate to thrive and reproduce. Though they will often need to remain above freezing, the 64f degree mean min isn't a nessesary.

To look it another way, we have Mediterranean plants...described as such ...due the location of their origins.... not because of the climate requirements.

Jeff

The above followup was added by Jeff on April 30, 2002 at 3:01 pm PST.

There are a number of areas in the world that have tropical climates and are not in the tropics. How do you explain that? The plants that originate there are tropicals.

Even you yourself defien tropical according to a climate requirement, a mean of 64F on the coolest month of the year. That actually includes some mediteranean areas.

Before you tell someone they are wrong, (a real bad habit of yours) check the references. Most of them classify a plant that can take some frost and chill as "subtropical" not "tropical". Read Julia Morton's book for example.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on April 30, 2002 at 5:05 pm PST.

Axel,

Just once I would like to make a post, without you trying to make it out to be negative. I realize that this is your board and contradiction can be a good thing but attacking my posts and trying to provoke arguments.

With this in mind, I will address your statement above, then leave the string alone.

I realize the definintion of tropical is debatable, I enjoy growing plants and sharing experiances....not arguing.

1. Where in my above post did I tell you that you are wrong? ( You know my habit!)
You just put the cart before the horse.. in putting my tropical definition down.

2. I never said that ALL areas with tropical climates were located in the tropics.
What I said was... ( Needless to say, you will most often find tropical climates... in the tropics! ) "MOST OFTEN" IS THE KEY WORD!

3. Where in the mediteranean do they have a tropical climate? Is there even a city there where coolest month has a mean temp higher than 64f. What city?

Jeff

The above followup was added by Jeff on April 30, 2002 at 6:54 pm PST.

How's "You have "Tropical" backwards" sound? I merely discussed the details of what the term "tropicals" meant, and the subtle distinction between tropical, subtropical, and temperate, and all you can say is that I am wrong? I don't have any issues if you say I'm wrong, but at least, back up your statements with solid arguments and facts. Healthy discussions deterioriate into arguments when someone tells someone else they are wrong. This started as a healthy, interesting discussion. Maybe we can restore it to such.

The Azores, a mediteranean climate, has an even year-round temperature with a mean of around 64F even on the coolest month of the year. There are other maritime locations with similar profile, notoriously New Zealand and Lord Howe island.

Modesto is a temperate, mediteranean climate with cold, frosty Winters, cool springs, and a nice, long dry and hot season that lasts from May through October. It's not a climate that comes even close to anything tropical. Coconuts will not grow there. Yeah, you can grow bananas, but bananas also grow in Seattle because they are hardy to 20F.

I really don't understand the sensitivity over tropicals anyway. Of course, a lot of subtropical plants and highland tropical plants can be considered as "tropicals" in layman's terms. The audience on this board is sofisticated enough to understand the difference.

This whole board is about gardening with a tropical theme in mind, no one's even questioning that. This type of gardening is enjoyed by many folks, even as far north as New York and even Canada. There are folks who push the limits so far, it makes our attempts look plain old wimpy.

And yes, there are "true" tropicals. The coconut is a perfect definition, and along with it, there are a number of such plants that are just plain out of our reach because they don't tolerate any form of chill. The moment a tropical plant exhibits adaptability to extended chill and frost, it becomes a subtropical. That's the whole point of the definition of the term "subtropical".

Within the term subtropical, there is a gradual scale of changing degrees of hardiness.

Then, there is a whole spectrum of plants that can be classified as highland subtropicals. This is the most interesting group of plants, and it is this group of plants that the Cloudforest Gardener is named after. These plants provide us with a vast genetic repository of choices to make our cold, chilly, yet midl, but less-than subtropical California gardens into tropical paradises.

I would hardly call all of this splitting hairs. These distinctions is what the Cloudforest Gardener is all about. And discussing it is fun.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on April 30, 2002 at 7:31 pm PST.

SUBTROPICAL GARDENING DEFINED

by Ian Barclay

Subtropical gardening is a style of gardening in which an attempt is made to create a garden in a temperate climate such that it appears to be in a much warmer climate. “The lure of the beauty of tropical landscapes like those found in Hawaii, Key West, Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Bali, and other exotic locales is undeniable. Such beauty has an almost irresistible appeal . . .It is the stuff dreams are made of” (Riffle, 1998).

This style of gardening is based on what has been dubbed the “tropical look.” “The tropical look is a bit difficult to define with words alone, but its components include all palms” as very important and distinctive subjects, “all plants with relatively large or boldly shaped foliage and flowers, and all plants with colored or variegated leaves and large and spectacular flowers and flower clusters . . .The tropical look is also based generally on evergreen plants, especially large-leaved herbaceous plants like bananas, bold-leaved trees, and ferns. In short, the tropical look is one of flamboyant forms and contrast.” (Riffle, 1998).

The tropical look can also be considered to include many exotic xeric plants, not just plants that give the appearance of a rainforest or jungle. "The climax community aspect of [desert] areas is uniquely exotic, tropical and colorful" (Riffle, 1998).

It must be acknowledged that the vast majority of true tropical and subtropical plants will usually not grow well in temperate climates. Although the subtropics are geographically defined as the areas of the Earth within a certain distance of the Equator, this definition is of limited usefulness in subtropical gardening. “ . . .A tropical looking plant need not be strictly tropical, either in the geographical or horticultural sense" (Riffle, 1998). Truly tropical and subtropical plants will not survive if there is too little heat in summer, and more likely too much cold in winter. Therefore subtropical gardeners must learn a variety of tricks to achieve a tropical look outside of the true tropics.

There are four main ways in which a tropical look can be achieved in a less than tropical climate. “First, one can use plants which have tropical looking characteristics but which also have some degree of hardiness. Many people do not realize how many tropical looking plants can be grown well outdoors outside of the truly tropical and subtropical regions” (Riffle, 1998). Such plants can be called “tropical impersonators, hardy plants with a tropical look” (Reynolds, 2000). The more tender plants are “grown . . .with a variety of other exotic but relatively cold-hardy plants to create the appearance of a jungle garden” (Reynolds, 2001). A vast knowledge of plant material is necessary to achieve this, and gardeners who limit themselves to the narrow selection of plants that are the most common in the nursery trade will have a very difficult time doing so. “Tropical impersonators” are important for creating the backbone of the subtropical garden, since it would be foolish to risk a marginally hardy plant in a location where its function in the garden is important (such as a windbreak or shade tree). (This also points to the importance of “plant hunting” and collecting for the purpose of having a sufficient variety of material to choose from in a subtropical garden.)

"Second, some protection--burlap-wrapping, poly-sheeting, and so forth--can be given to tender plants" (Riffle, 1998). Protection can also be offered in the form of growing plants in large containers (or even digging them out of the ground before cold periods), and storing them somewhere warm until the weather warms. The knowledge of microclimates should also be used to provide suitably sheltered places for more marginal plants according to their needs. “The modification of microclimate through garden design can . . .capture sunlight in winter, storing heat . . .Dense plantings can also mitigate cold coastal winds” (Beatty, 2001).

Third, “ . . .the gardener may choose to use plants that "die back" to the roots in freezing temperatures, but which will grow again quite vigorously when warmer temperatures return in the spring" (Riffle, 1998).

Finally, the use of hardscape elements generally associated with tropical regions such as bamboo structures and pools to invoke a tropical feel cannot be underestimated.

The gardener who is able to combine all of these elements with a general knowledge of garden design and plant care will be able to achieve an amazingly tropical-looking garden in any climate. It is certainly one of the more high maintenance forms of gardening, usually requiring more time and energy to create and maintain than other sorts of gardens. However, the rewards of subtropical gardening are well worth it.

• SUBTROPICAL GARDENING DEFINED

Now you are pitting my amateur definition against some other amateur from the Pacific northwest. Trust me we could go on and on providing one document after another in attempt to prove ones case either way.
This tit for tat type of BS bores me.

I have no major beef against the term " Sub tropical", except that in almost every discussion with climate experts, they can't seem to provide a solid explanation as to where the " Sub Tropics are " ...
Unlike the term "Tropics" as was defined before...

By the way... I'm still waiting for the facts as it relates to your statement...

............ "Even you yourself define tropical according to a climate requirement, a mean of 64F on the coolest month of the year. That actually includes some mediteranean areas."...........

I ask you again... Which Mediteranean areas? Italy ?, Spain? Cyprus? Greece?
You would never make such a bold statement like this without providing some sort of quailifying facts... now would you?

The Azores, way out in the Atlantic Ocean shipping lanes ( Doesn't have anywhere near a Tropical climate). The Winter mean is around 51f -56f which puts it on par will Southern cal.

Jeff

The above followup was added by Jeff on April 30, 2002 at 9:26 pm PST.

I would hardly call Ian's paper "amateur" work. He wrote the paper for a University level Horticulture class, and the paper is backed by fact and references. And the fact that he is in the Pacific Northwest is completely irrelevant to the discussion. In fact, some of the islands in the Puget sound have Winters about as mild as the Central Valley, although with much cooler Summers. So experiences from the pacific Northwest are quite relevant here.

About the facts and definitions, here are some.

The mean temperature for some of the Azores stations is not 51F. In fact, it's above 16C.

Scientific definition #1: a plant is classified as subtropical if it is of tropical origin and is adapted to grow outside of the tropics.

Scientific fact #1: the further away you are from large bodies of water that moderate Winter lows, the colder your Winter lows will be, and the more limited you will be in the choice of tender plants that you can grow.

Scientific fact #2: there are locations much less than tropical that can still have a monthly mean of 64F on the coolest month of the year. Just do the math with highs and lows. In the desert, with 100F highs, and 30F lows, you end up with (100+30)/2 = 65F. 85F/45F=mean of 65F. 75F/55F = mean of 65F, and the last one is very likely in the Azores in the Winter.

By the way, there is no accepted definition of "subtropical" when it comes to climate. There is only an accepted definition of subtropical when it comes to plant adaptation. The best way to characterize "subtropical" is that it includes any region that is predominantly freeze free and experiences freezes only occasionally.

The Encyclopedia "Tropica" tries to map out the subtropical regions of the world. On the west coasts, the line extends pretty high up to about San Francisco. On the East coast, the line ends near the northern end of Florida. In the process, this classification includes a lot of mediteranean and temperate regions. So the term "subtropical" is a higher classification of climate types. Just as there are different types of tropical, such as wet/dry, hot/warm versus year-round identical conditions.

Jeff, get used to it, you don't live in the tropics, and you can only grow those plants that are botanically classified as subtropicals. It's not even up to interpretation, it's based on the definition. If a plant can grow in Modesto, then it's at best subtropical.

I suspect that most of this discussion emerges from the fact that accepted gardening know-how dictates that you can grow hardy plants like Mexican avocados and citrus in the valley, plus other plants that can take a guaranteed 25F without major harm such as Dypsis Decipiens. The rest will only grow in sheltered locations thanks to the distance in between the moderating ocean and Modesto. And even then, this far north, even the ocean sometimes is of little help.

That still includes a pretty large choice of plants, and perhaps an even larger number in the future thanks to all the experimentation going on right now. But these plants are subtropical at best.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on April 30, 2002 at 10:50 pm PST.

Axel.... Once again I don't fathom where you are coming from....

I t seems that your are the one trying convince your self something about "Modesto "...specifically being tropical or something... GET OVER IT! We are not! Nor is anywhere in the state!

As I mentioned to be a tropical climate you'd have to have a mean winter temp over 64f. My yard didn't even see a high temp 64f in Dec and Jan...much less have a mean temp over that.
I grow tropicals....Modesto is not tropical!

The whole purpose of this thread was to dispell any myths someone might have about tropical stuff. As it was I that first made the definitions clear. It is you that offer all kinds of unupported BS to justify your position....what ever the hell that is????

But here is some points where you appear to try and mislead, just to prove that point...

You state in your own words...

......Scientific fact #2: there are locations much less than tropical that can still have a monthly mean of 64F on the coolest month of the year. Just do the math with highs and lows. In the desert, with 100F highs, and 30F lows, you end up with (100+30)/2 = 65F. 85F/45F=mean of 65F. 75F/55F = mean of 65F, and the last one is very likely in the Azores in the Winter.

....Is all the above statement just white wash trying to cover the real FACT that you can't find a single station in the the Mediteranean with a mean winter temp above 64f.? As you have claimed there is?
Even if the Azores had tropical winters (mean temps above 64f...and no cold )and they don't , .....the islands are 1500KM away from the Mediteranean... they don't qualify....leave it alone. The rest of what you are saying... may or may not be facts...but they have no bering on this discussion.

Once again....To be considered a tropical climate there also has to be an absence of cold..... ( See my first post in this string for reference)REMEMBER? If an area had a hi of 100f and a low of 30f...isn't 30f cold to you?

After rereading your post above found more errors that maybe someone down under can verify for me as being ... just wrong...

Axel states.....

.........The Azores, a mediteranean climate, has an even year-round temperature with a mean of around 64F even on the coolest month of the year. There are other maritime locations with similar profile, notoriously New Zealand and Lord Howe island........

Where the hell on New Zealand has mean winter temps of above 64f???? Is it on North or South Island?
Auckland in the north part of the country is just about the warmest city that I could find. They have a winter average high of about only 60f! and mean winter temp of less than 55f.

I hope we can end this thread soon...it sure is counter productive. I 'm now sorry that I brought the discussion up.

Jeff

The above followup was added by Jeff on May 01, 2002 at 1:11 am PST.

Riffle has a section in the introduction to his book where he attempts to sort out the difference between "tropical" and "tropical-looking". Not only are many "tropical-looking" plants not from the tropics, he argues, but many plants that are of tropical provenance are not tropical-looking. I have some problems with his example of Araucaria pines in this regard, and I will attempt to revise Riffle's limited view on tropical vs. tropical-looking on a different thread. Furthermore, many tropical plants are not exactly "tropical" in their requirements. In particular, because the survival strategies of drought and cold are so similar, many "tropical" plants from seasonally arid areas show some degree of cold tolerance.
No place in the western U.S. is even subtropical. There are, to my way of thinking, three gardening paradigms in the western U.S. that draw on subtropical inspiration to produce rather exotic-looking gardens: Desert "subtropical" (Phoenix, Palm Springs, etc.)
Mediterranean "subtropical" (Much of central and southern California) and temperate "subtropical" (mild coastal areas with low summer heat accumulation). Some of this of course, is rather personal. What looks "temperate subtropical" to me...tree ferns, bamboos, hardy palms, gingers, etc., might just look like a normal garden to some one from New Zealand.
Finally, I remember that on the first day of my tropical and subtropical horticulture in college many years ago, the professor noted that the distinction between "tropical" and "temperate" fruits is more semantic than botanical. This was further drummed into me when I was in Costa Rica a few years back, and saw a poster of "frutas tropicales" that included blueberries, grapes and pears. When I pointed this out to a Tico friend, he said "pues, si son tropicales...se cultivan en las alturas." (Sure they're tropicals...they grow them at higher altitudes). Obviously definitions are always tentative for something like this. But it changed my way of thinking. I now I'm just as interested in growing "rare fruit" in the sense of unusual cultivars of apples or pears as species that aren't commercially grown on a large scale in the U.S. They're all "tropical"!

The above followup was added by Steve in Brookings, OR on May 01, 2002 at 3:36 am PST.

Wow, now that's a bummer post if I've ever read one. The use of caps, exclamations, nasty expressions, it's all rude, impolite, and simply inappropriate. If your goal was to be offensive, well, you have succeeeded. You need to cool off and re-read what you just posted.

I think an appology is in order.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on May 01, 2002 at 4:14 am PST.

Axel...
Reread your posts and you will see, that with the exception my first post at the beginning of the string...I have been defending my opinion against an onslot of inaccuarcies....

Look at how Ron and Steve responded....quite opinionated but polite...very proffessional.

Just about everytime I right a post....you seem to love the challege ...what seems to argue for the sake of an argument. This time its been exceptionally bad.

If your goal is to limit my comments to...yes, no or maybe so. I guess thats what I'll do to avoid being banned from this site... but remember...a good percentage of what gets posted here is either posted by me or someone who I have personally refered to the site.

Everytime we get into this sort on unproductive tiff... I get loads of email from visitors to your site ( They are coming in again now) ...100% supporting my side of the discussion...But always asking what did I do to cause you to " Go Off again?" I always defend your right to argue...but explain...It's free country, you own the board...I'm just vistor just like everybody else.....

This time...I won't defend you. The complaints are warrented.

Jeff

The above followup was added by Jeff on May 01, 2002 at 6:53 am PST.

Boy, how about dumping more fuel on the fire. First, an inflamatory post, next, let's move on to patronizing and condescending. Now we're on a roll.

My first post didn't even come close to challenging anything you said. I elaborated on a topic I am quite interested in. But hey, apparently, according to you, everything I say is just a bunch of crap, and "I have it all backwards". So if this is the case, and the rest of the folks actually support the kind of posting style you have, then I am truly wasting my time maintaining this board. That would be sad indeed. Anyone who thinks I am in error here, feel free to drop me a line. I just spent some time fixing my E-mail, so I should be able to get E-mails now.

I don't think other folks would appreciate you speaking on their behalf, because I am skeptical the rest of the folks support your style - there's a name for it on the internet: it's called a flame, and is considered highly inappropriate internet etiquet. Don't bully folks around, that's simply not nice.

You take offense if anyone doesn't share your perspective down to the minute detail. Never mind the fact that as a whole, we're both saying the same thing. You're quick to show a complete lack of respect and tell someone else they are wrong. I don't take issue with what you say, but how you say it. Any words such as "you have this backwards" or "you don't know what you're talking about" are fighting words that are referred to as "flames" and simply don't belong on this site.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on May 01, 2002 at 8:11 am PST.

Hi dear Axel and Jeff :)
Well, first of all Peace and Love guys! :) well, you should be wondering who I am? :P so I'll introduce myself first... I'm Annie, Jason's wife :). I come from Tampico, in Mexico wich is below Texas and more tropical than even Florida, in the tropics we can't grow a lot of fruits, so be happy that you live in a cold place (both of you!).

So hi again! well, I really think you're both great! and I don't think you should be figthing all the time! :D. You know my best friend and I used to fight all the time until she went to live in somewhere else and then I missed her so much (Jason says Axel doesn't like the exclamation marks so I won't use them too much :P hihihi) well, so my point is: You are good friends and really, I've been reading this cloudforest for months already even if I don't write anything never, I know you very well by now and I know you love each other (as friends)! so stop being ridiculous and behave yourselves :) Ooops, well I hope you won't get mad at me and start writting all this stuff to me now :P but well, that's it! (sorry for the exclamations)

Annie
p.s. you should suck coffee through a tim tam chocolate :) by the way (I just had one they're yummy!)

The above followup was added by Annie on May 01, 2002 at 9:56 am PST.

The abused!.... The above post sounds a bit like my kids when they get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.

I would sugguest that all of your anger and frustration stems from the fact that you spewed a bunch of bull. Now you babble all of this nonsense to cover the fact that you can't provide facts to support your statements.

( By the way ..Your statments never had anything to do with the original post...but please tell us where in the AZORES or NEW ZEALAND IS HAS tropical winters!) I'm sure no one cares to hear the answer, but it does prove one of my points

Regards to my last post...no one is speaking on others behalf.... Please...para phrase my words...
Where did I say anything like what I should have said ...
Like... "On behalf of others...Axel please maintain dignity? Don't be petty and attack me evertime I forget to dot an " I " correctly!"

For the record...Others have spoken to you directly on this board about your behavior.... don't you remember the last cheesy attack ?
( At the time I really thought it was someone making anonymous derogatory posts, I am now pretty sure it was you)They specifically asked you not to run me off of the board!...go back and check...if your ego will allow.
I did say that others have written emails to me... I bet that you didn't want to hear that truth..I'm sorry that irks you. The truth hurts. If you don't like the fact that others are critical of you for your petty Kamakazi attacks... then maybe we should find another board....as you sugguest!

Annie.... Thanks for all of the kind words. Sorry if our bickering has offended anyone.

Starting today, i'll be doing my part to promote the peace....

Jeff

The above followup was added by Jeff on May 01, 2002 at 3:26 pm PST.

Jeff, I am not angry, only offended and dissapointed. I can see that you thoroughly enjoy this.

And yes, I am pretty frustrated that the Cloudforest has ended up like this. I suppose building a nice community based on politeness and courtesy takes more time than I can afford.

When I read the palm board, I can see they have their share of trouble makers as well. I suppose that's part of managing a board.

I am sorry I can't spend more time making this a better place.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on May 01, 2002 at 3:47 pm PST.

Raoul Island, Kermedec group, latitude 27S, the northernmost Island of New Zealand. Mean midwinter temperature is 62F exactly. Mid-summer is 70F. It is subtropical in latitude, but oceanic warm-temperate is probably a better description for its climate.

But, there are 2 coconut palms there. Does this make it tropical? No!

btw, I'm not getting involved in your argument!!! Actually, I think I have a cultural difficulty here, I can't even tell how serious you two are. If you were NZers talking like that, I'd think you were just joking. You Californians, I have no idea.

The above followup was added by Ben on May 02, 2002 at 4:49 am PST.

Ben,

You have a point. I can't speak for Jeff, but I am embarrased. My posts are way too serious. This whole thing is stupid. I don't really care either way if there is or is not a place with a mean in the low 60's in the Winter that's not tropical. Nor do I really care about the definitions. But thanks for pointing it out anyway.

I think Jeff is pissed off at me. Shame, he's a good fellow. I have two nice specimens of tropical plants he was kind enough to give me. I have a beautiful large tree tomato that's produced beautiful, delicious fruit, and a dwarf Orinocco banana that's putting the rest of my bananas to shame. I did post an appology above, hopefully he will read it.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on May 02, 2002 at 6:01 am PST.

I don't see how farmers and etc. can grow tropical plants in an area there not familiar to. It's just way confusing. I always believed that we couldn't grow them in non-tropical areas.

The above followup was added by Dorothy on September 14, 2003 at 10:05 am PST.

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The above followup was added by hmljujhftyyj,l on January 06, 2004 at 3:04 pm PST.

I have been slowly concerting my mom's yard to a totally landscaped no-mowing tropical-escape for her. She is 78 and has Alzheimers. People, I thank those that have contributed to my knowledge base already, but could we forgo the bickering and lightening the heart of a little old lady that only has a few years left? So far I have found Windmill palms, Needle Palms, Cannas, New Zeeland Purple Flax. She lives right on the beach of Camano Island in Puget Sound of Washington State. So far the Cannas look the worst after each winter without being a 100% kill to the ground. The rest just shrug the short winters off. I just found some wonderful bananas from TyTy which I will be odering in the $150.00 fruit-bearing immediately size. I shall be offresearching this below-freezing "Mexican Avacado" which I have never heard of. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE help make a little old ladies last days a bit more fun for her and pass this along and send me e-mail. Bless you.

Sincerly-Fredrick (Ron) Hall

The above followup was added by Ron on January 08, 2004 at 9:59 pm PST.

BLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLABLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABL;ABLABLABLABLABLABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALALALALALALALALALALAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLBLBLBLBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL;A;A;;A;A;A;A;ALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAALALALALALALALALALALAALBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

The above followup was added by kASEY on September 12, 2004 at 7:30 am PST.

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The above followup was added by ghkfukjhlk on December 09, 2004 at 8:52 am PST.

hukgjl,78yuiltgjkj,hjo6ynmk,kjhm,gidihgjkjk;;kudjghjkyuokjbklyugfkhjoyu

The above followup was added by ghkfukjhlk on December 09, 2004 at 8:53 am PST.

hukgjl,78yuiltgjkj,hjo6ynmk,kjhm,gidihgjkjk;;kudjghjkyuokjbklyugfkhjoyu

The above followup was added by ghkfukjhlk on December 09, 2004 at 8:53 am PST.

you poeple have too much time on your hands to sit here and type all this bullshit. who really cares the only reason i am here is because i have to do a school research and dont know anything about the topic i have and i am not really interested in it. the tropics are just another place nothing different their then any where else.

The above followup was added by bullshiter on February 07, 2005 at 6:00 am PST.

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