Disillusioned with exotic fruit
We are eating amazing peaches, moorpark apricots are ripening now, and they are simply amazing. We're eating tasty mullberries, cherries, pears, apples, plums, berries, nectarines, pluots, all are sooooo yummy.
Of the exotics, cherimoyas are really the only ones that even rival in flavor with any of the deciduous fruits we're eating, but alas, they carry the shadow of screwing up brain chemistry. Now I found out the white sapotes are regarded by the Mexicans as a fruit that will make you ill if you eat too much. So what little exotic fruit happens to taste really good is considered bad for your health.
The rest of the exotics that grow well are more or less famine food. If you've got nothing else and you're starving, these things are ok to eat, but when there are good peaches around?
Nobody in my household will touch any of the exotic passion fruit, except for edulis. The tamarillos also remained un-eaten this year. The strawberry guavas are ok, but I can only eat maybe two or three berries, and then that's it. Same with the Feijojas, they are too soapy for me. The chamburro papaya trees look stunning, but the un-eaten fallen fruits seem to suggest that these trees have little more than ornamental value.
Then, the few exotics that are actually good for your health and are delicious barely grow here: tropical guavas, tropical papayas, mangoes, bananas, surinam cherries, the list goes on and on. These are all very good for you, and rival in taste with the Northern Summer fruits, but they just don't grow here.
This is all contributing to my disillusionment with exotic fruits. 12 years ago when i started, I grew almost exclusivley exotic fruits, and for the first 7 or 8 years, I had nothing to show for, almost no fruits coming out of the garden.
Now that I have slowly replaced many of the exotic plantings with "plain ol' run of the mill, pretty standard" fruits, I am being rewarded with the most amazing and delicious delights.
So what gives? Is it possible to be a "California Fruit Grower" instead of a "California Rare Fruit Grower"? Seems to me the latter is far more rewarding and satisfying.
As I am eating so many yummy fruits, I am beginning to covet those spaces in my garden still occupied by "exotics" and wondering, what about a nice peach here, or a nice pear tree over there?
I've come to the conclusion that the exotics are quite fine here if the vision demands an ornamental focus with that big visual "wow" factor. But for a culinary "wow" factor, my conclusion is clearly to forgo exotics and instead focus on finding the right varieties of plain, common fruits that will thrive given climactic and soil constraints.
So in my garden, the exotics remain, but are now confined to the mostly ornamental sections of the garden. But more and more peaches, apples, and nectarines are finding their ways in those sections dedicated mostly to palms and exotics.
The following thread was started by Axel on July 23, 2009 at 3:37 pm PST
I can't speak as an experienced grower yet because my "orchard" is still in the planning stages while issues surrounding the planned community sewer are resolved (I must use my front yard for future growing).
But...food growing needs balance or else you end up with the ridiculous as in my previous post re: cotton and rice in California.
It's fun to experiment, but if something can't be coaxed to do well without major water or carbon expenditures, there's not much sense in trying to grow it. Some people enjoy nursing plants along and testing themselves against adverse conditions. That one papaya every five years is enough for them. But it doesn't make much sense to me--unless it's just for fun and doesn't consume a lot of resources better directed elsewhere.
For some it seems to be a matter of filling in the calendar gaps left by the more familiar fruits. Something fresh to eat from the garden. Others truly do like some of these fruits as a contrast to the "standards". Having tasted my first white sapotes this year, I am sold on the idea of growing them, and I probably can succeed in my area with not much extra care. Cherimoyas are nice, too, and a small tree with a small crop would be a nice addition (my brain is already shot from 33 years of teaching chemistry).
If I ever get my small greenhouse built I might try a few pineapples or maybe even a papaya, but they would be for "fun". We like both fruits, but seldom buy them because of their cost. Truly, two pineapples a year would exceed our typical quota, and three papayas would be more than two year's worth for us!
So, it's a matter of what you and your family *like* and also some primal satisfaction if you have the experimental temperament--also the use of resources.
I can hardly wait to grow my own stone fruits again as well as try some sapotes, etc., but I think the exotics will always be playthings for me, not the main event.
That said, I really have learned a lot here and I look forward to learning more.
The above followup was added by Steve in Los Osos on July 23, 2009 at 4:45 pm PST.
Steve, both cherimoyas and white sapotes seem to be very well adapted to California's climate. I get plenty of fruit. The problem is that white sapotes ripen in July alongside much better tasting fruit like peaches, nectarines, pluot, plums, pears, apples and even some citrus. With that much competition, they are not very appealing.
The cherimoyas i still do grow, but I give most of them away to others to eat. I still have a dozen trees of about a dozen varieties. They are in the ornamental side of the garden.
There are three crops I was considering attempting in a greenhouse: tropical papayas grafted on chamburro, surinam cherries, and tropical guavas. But I am hesitating on the greenhouse due to the added maintenance work, worrying about all the greenhouse pests like white flies, scale, and so on. I already have white flys on my grapes.
You are right about growing well-adapted crops, it makes a massive difference in yield, time consumption, and water/energy consumption.
For me, the exotics are quickly becoming more and more of a fringe activity.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 23, 2009 at 6:17 pm PST.
I have found after 12+ yrs. of growing different exotic fruits that some varieties are just too on the edge of growing well here on the central coast. I've tried papayas,mango,pineapple and others only to fine that they won't make it outside here. Other fruit such as cherimoya, surinam cherry, white sapote, fuzzy yellow sapote, while they may take longer to get established they can do very well here. So I have been disillusioned many times growing or trying to grow some of the so-called exotic's. And like Axel, have found many of the stone fruit varieties to be excellent and well adapted to are climate. But with a attached greenhouse to my house it's hard to give up completely on some exotic's but have tempered my gota have's with adaptability to my environment after much loss of many plants.
The above followup was added by Scotty in A.G. on July 23, 2009 at 7:53 pm PST.
The white sapotes and cherimoyas brought to the local Farmer's Market by the local grower here all came in before the end of June (along with mandarins) so climate makes a difference for when the fruits fit into the harvest schedule.
The above followup was added by Steve in Los Osos on July 23, 2009 at 8:17 pm PST.
Interesting thoughts. Of course I can buy a cherimoya in the store much cheaper than growing it. So why grow these things called rare fruits? For me it it the challenge to acquire the plant/seed, grow it up with our difficult environment, and finally, if successful, to have a fruit. That fruit tastes so much better than one purchased in the store or picked from a tree in Hawaii. Most of my apples, apricots, etc. turn into compost anyway. They are not a challenge to grow, but learning to graft/bud, getting scions from other growers (talking sub and tropicals), meeting others, overcoming difficulties, sharing mistakes/ successes (oh, that's why THIS board!). Then there is the travel to tropical places and obtaining a plant/seed that will probably die anyway. But enthusiasm (and dumbness probably) sometimes wins out. Then it is worth it. It keeps the mind active, body active, and certainly helps the economy. I absolutely understand Axel's point, but those delicious peaches, plums, etc. are just boring, too easy.
The above followup was added by Jack, Nipomo on July 24, 2009 at 7:42 am PST.
I have lots of feelings floating around in my head and heart about this topic. And realize growing Exotic fruit can be quite exhausting and frustrating, I am learning that as well, and I am even colder in winter, then most of you.
I tell myself, what else could I be doing with my space and time, that might be more productive,
Presently it is hard to figure out, what causes most of my T.R. Hovey grafts on oak leaf papayas to fail, I guess bacterial contaminating and rot. It is so not much the growing of the tree and the fruit, but the challenge learning to do something.
I guess each of us saw the challenge and the excitement of growing exotic fruits, and got caught up into like the little boys and girls that we really are still inside. Who are moved maybe more by passion, excitement and fun, then reality.
My large experimental banana patch is giving way to citrus this year, planted a Valencia orange and a new Mandarin.
But still I am looking forward to my White Sapote fruit bearing fruit, now with a few plus varieties all on one tree.
I still sprout and try to find hardier versions of the more hardier hardy tropical fruits.
I class exotics not with sensitivity to cold winter temps, but rarity in the area. I am looking and playing around with anything new and unusual, more or less.
I find that being a Rare Fruit Grower is more about passion and attitude, and being on the edge, and sharing that with others. Actually when you think about how many actually grow fruit and actually know how, that is a rarity in itself any more today.
But most of all, it is doing the research, and finding a new variety, whether you have something new from seed, or you brought something new from a nursery. It is about the challenge and discovery for each one of us on personal level.
In this self discovery, I realized a greater expanded love for fruit, I realize for myself, why my mother most likely loved figs, persimmons and mango's, and even regular fruits so much.
I love the challenge and the research, I guess we each need something to keep us feeling alive and on the edge, we don't have new lands to discover as our pioneers ancestors once did, but in away, this is similar, and for me, it satisfies the need at present.
David
The above followup was added by David Johnson, Waterford CA, zone 14 on July 24, 2009 at 8:12 am PST.
Personally, I don't mind experimenting with unusual borderline fruit, but I don't much care for wasting valuable space for something that's just borderline.
Basically, there is a good reason obscure fruit are obscure, whether or not they are well adapted to our climate or not: it's because they are really not that good to begin with, and have had little improvement work done to make them desirable other than maybe make jam or process into smoothies.
Examples of obscure fruits that are well adapted are white sapotes, capulin cherries, loquats, tree tomatoes, autumn olives, strawberry guavas. These fruits are almost never seen in stores, mostly because in any taste tests, none of these fruits would even come close to competing with a good peach, pear, apricot or apple. In Hawaii, the stawberry guava is essentially a weed, and fruit is rarely found in any markets, but you can readily find it in jam form.
Then, there are fruits that are not obscure, but they are not known in our climate because they don't readily grow here. These are well known and super delicious in their home range, but none of the climate-marginal fruit can even compete in flavor with well adapted fruit.
Examples of such fruit include dragon fruit, tropical guavas, mangoes, sapodillas, jackfruit, tropical guavas, the list goes on and on. Some of these would probably doable in a greenhouse, but here in the Santa Cruz mountains, we don't get enough heat for most of these.
I can see how maybe from San Luis Obispo southward, some of these might do quite well outside and could be worthwhile. or maybe inland Norcal with Winter protection, but I've yet to eat a single specimen of these to prove they are worthwhile to grow here.
In defense of the "jam" fruits, there are delicious recipes for processing, all the way from jam to sauces, sorbet and ice cream. For example, loquats make an amazing "apple sauce", although it should be called "loquat sauce". When loquats ripen, there are often no apples around, so it's worthwhile to grow just for that.
Babaco and mountain papayas will make a delicious fragrant syrup for pancakes.
Strawberry guavas are delicious as jam or ice cream.
Tree tomatoes make a wicked sorbet.
So in those terms, these fruits are worthwhile. But they are not something you'd reach for in the garden and eat right off the tree.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 24, 2009 at 10:27 am PST.
It's a challenge :) there's no point to me having a fruit garden if it's not hard. Apples Cherries and Apricots are about as hard to grow where I live as grass, maybe even easier than that, Sapotes, Avocados and Citrus are not hard but a small challenge and will reward you with the majority of your Winter fruit. Everything else is just for the challenge of it and so people that come to visit go WOW. A healthy babaco loaded up with fruit allways gets that response
The above followup was added by Jason on July 24, 2009 at 1:17 pm PST.
Axel,
Many people would consider the varieties of the stone fruits we grow rare and exotic -- certainly one can not buy 'Karmijn De Sonneville" apple 'from most grocery stores or even farmer's markets!!
The above followup was added by atc (sunnyvale) on July 24, 2009 at 1:56 pm PST.
Yes, I agree, rare and exotic can mean unusual varieties of common fruits.
Well, if it turns you on to grow something just because it's hard, then be my guest, personally, I don't buy the argument that there's no point in growing something unless it's hard to grow.
My goal is to get a year-round continuous harvest of a wide variety of fruits for the least amount of effort possible. So I guess I'll just have to disagree, to each his own as they say.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 24, 2009 at 2:20 pm PST.
I allready have fruit year round, but that's survival for me since that's allmost all I eat. I'm not silly I'm not going to waste time trying growing a Lychee or something like that, the extreeme end of the spectrum is Cherimoyas for me.
Still I don't get any pleasure from growing say.. An apple because they don't taste all that good and don't have all that many nutrients plus you only have to stick them in the ground and the do the rest themself. I quite enjoy growing Avocados because they are nutrient rich, fruit year round and need a little bit of care to do well but not so much that they give you stress
The above followup was added by Jason on July 24, 2009 at 3:01 pm PST.
There is a soporific compound in white sapote seeds, leaves and fruit. The fruit has the lowest concentration of it. The leaves are employed in Central America and now China for the narcotic effect they induce.
One of white sapote's older regional Spanish names is 'Mata Sano' which means "kills health." This likely arises from the fruit's soporific effects, or from the fact that the seeds are extremely toxic if eaten.
The above followup was added by abyssquick on July 24, 2009 at 4:36 pm PST.
I grow more exotic temperate fruits: medlar, pawpaw, shipova, mulberry , pineapple guava (which I think tastes great), himalayan honeysuckle, fresh eating quince, and also exotic versions of regular fruit: King David apple, pie cherries instead of sweet cherries, bulgarian and crandall jostaberry black currants, many kinds of pears, and exotic vegetables like nopal cactus, mallow, burnet, asparagus, artichoke, oca, black salsify, and earth chestnut.
I agree that if it doesn't produce much, it better be pretty, because there's only so much space. It's also nice to be able to eat yummy things that you can't buy, taste much worse when you can, or are exorbitantly expensive.
John S
PDX OR
The above followup was added by John S on July 24, 2009 at 4:53 pm PST.
So do we add White Sapote to the suspective no eat list?
I say that with some seriousness, yet at the same time think, if we start adding fruits and vegetables to such a list, wouldn't it put a lot of them on it?
David
The above followup was added by David Johnson, Waterford CA, zone 14 on July 25, 2009 at 9:24 am PST.
Sapotes have been on the suspect list since I first bought the trees 10 years ago. But you will find out like I have, that you just can't eat enough for that to be a problem. You eat one and go... yum and that's enough, I'd be lucky to eat 5 a year and yet have enough fruit to eat 5 a day but you just cant
The above followup was added by Jason on July 25, 2009 at 3:16 pm PST.
easily put away a sapote a day. We certainly did here for the weeks they were available at the Farmer's Market. I've said it before but I think it is possible to overestimate the impact of consumption in a balanced diet. I dare say you may not feel very good if you eat a half-dozen bananas each day for a month.
The point is--who would want to? Are bananas the only edible at your disposal? As David says above, the list of "dangerous" or "suspect" foods will be quite long if you read enough studies.
I'd sooner eat a white sapote every day for a 6 months than have breathed the air in L.A. for the 55 years I lived there.
The above followup was added by Steve in Los Osos on July 25, 2009 at 4:54 pm PST.
we worry about cumulative affects of poisons in fruits but there is cumulative damage affects from breathing the pollutants in the air every day personally i am not going to stop breathing. if any seed that contains poison is also found to some degree in the fruit than apples have stricnine in them so it would seem no fruit is withought some risk. for me i like some challenge to the fruits i grow or try to grow but if the fruit is not worth the effort than it has to go. i like peaches as well as the next person but if i had a good juicy georgia peach and an abiu in front of me and could only choose one of them to eat i am going for the abiu it is not something i can go to the store or flea market to buy and it is to me a very good fruit. peaches i can get almost anytime of the year at any grocery store. somepoisons are cummulative some filter out before any damage can happen. i like white sapote but i am not going to eat 5 pounds of them per day i don't think anyone is even sure how many pounds a day of some of these fruits you would have to eat everyday of the year for most of all of you're life to cause damage
The above followup was added by mikeyinfla on July 25, 2009 at 5:19 pm PST.
I would not lump white sapote in the same category as cherimoya. White sapotes are not harmful, and would be fine to eat as an evening fruit. It's just not something that is recommended in great quantities. I agree with Jason, I can't eat more than one at a time, I don't know what it is about it, it's too rich or something.
Cherimoyas and all annonas have the issue that much of their compounds have cell killing properties, which is why they are of interest to cancer researchers, but that is also why they are harmful as a neurotoxin. Annonas are in a class of their own.
Personally, I'd rather eat fruits that have proven health benefits. Apples, bananas, guavas, plums, they all have proven health benefits. Apples are extremely high in anti-oxidants, bananas and plums are really good for your digestive system,. guavas are highly beneficial for your intestines.
White sapotes could be considered healthy if you eat them in the evening as a night cap.
Annonas, on the other hand appear to damage brain chemistry. So to me, my list of fruits to avoid is only annonas.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 25, 2009 at 9:43 pm PST.
I decided to do a little Google research, and yes, while white sapote fruit are known to induce drowsiness, they also contain zapotin, a potent anti-cancer agent that helps prevent colon cancer. See the following references. So eat them before going to bed, they may even help you get a better night's sleep.
a b Murillo G, Hirschelman WH, Ito A, et al. (2007). "Zapotin, a phytochemical present in a Mexican fruit, prevents colon carcinogenesis". Nutrition and Cancer 57 (1): 28–37. doi:10.1080/01635580701268097. PMID 17516860.
Maiti A, Cuendet M, Kondratyuk T, Croy VL, Pezzuto JM, Cushman M (Jan 2007). "Synthesis and cancer chemopreventive activity of zapotin, a natural product from Casimiroa edulis". Journal of Medicinal Chemistry (American Chemical Society) 50 (2): 350–5. doi:10.1021/jm060915+. PMID 17228877
The above followup was added by Axel on July 25, 2009 at 9:56 pm PST.
Zapotin (5,6,2',6'-tetramethoxyflavone), found in the tropical fruit zapote blanco (Casimiroa edulis), is consumed in many parts of the world, including Central America and Asia. Previously, we have demonstrated in vitro chemopreventive activity of extracts derived from the seeds of C. edulis. In the present study, we examined the effects of natural and synthetic zapotin in SW480, SW620, and HT-29 colon cancer cell lines and on the generation of aberrant crypt foci (ACF) using mice. Zapotin treatment (IC50 = 2.74 x 10-7 M) resulted in a marked suppression of cell proliferation in the HT-29 cells. Cell cycle analysis demonstrated a significant accumulation of cells in the G2-M phase, with a concomitant decrease of cells in the G0-G1 phase, after treatment with zapotin (molecular weight = 342.35 g/mol; 1 μM for 18, 24, and 48 h). Zapotin treatment enhanced apoptosis in all of the colon cancer cell lines studied. For the study of ACF, 5-wk-old CF-1 mice were given subcutaneous injections of azoxymethane (AOM; 10 mg/kg body weight, BW) weekly for 2 wk, and zapotin (5 or 10 mg/kg BW; 46 or 92 pmol/kg BW) or vehicle was administered intragastrically 7 days/wk. The mean number of ACF for the control group was 14.0 ± 2.3, whereas the mean numbers of ACF in the zapotin-treated groups were 6.2 ±1.7 and 4.6 ± 1.4 at doses of 5.0 and 10.0 mglkg BW, respectively. Loss of hexosaminidase, a lysosomal enzyme active in normal colonic crypts but decreased in up to 95% of ACF, was used as a second biomarker for colon carcinogenesis. Zapotin was found to significantly (P < 0.01) prevent loss of hexosaminidase in the colon of AOM-treated mice. The present study is the first to report the potent anticancer activity of zapotin and suggests a role for zapotin both as a chemopreventive and a chemotherapeutic agent against colon cancer.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 25, 2009 at 10:00 pm PST.
I love fruit, but when I eat it a peach or etc, or even a banana, only eat one usually, except for smaller fruits like figs, persimmons and guavas and etc.
During the summer, I get up and take my herbs, supplements and pineapple juice, then a an hour or two later eat a peach of something. That satisfies me for hours, until I finally eat lunch at 1 to 2 p.m, eat two and it might carry me until 4 p.m.
So it sounds like White Sapotes are great your ones body. I have found that most fruits are cleansing to the body, and as well, many area anti cancerous.
I can remember not too many years ago, the concern was eating almonds and apricots, and even pomegranates, for the compounds they have in small percents.
How many eat poisonous potatoes, eggplant and tomatoes, chocked full of alkaloids and what ever.
I think the continued best advice is, eat in moderation, a large variety of fruits and vegetables.
David
The above followup was added by David Johnson, Waterford CA, zone 14 on July 26, 2009 at 2:40 am PST.
Wow, I am practically a fruitarian in the Summer, eating mostly fruit out of the garden, I just end up eating pretty small meals because of all the yummy fruit in the garden. That's how I gew up too.
Today I had my first Mustafa pears, wow they are good, tasty little buggers. I chowed down a nice flavor queen pluot, and I just picked a giant snow beauty peach that's filled with nectar.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 26, 2009 at 9:42 am PST.
fwiw: I have yet to find where the flesh of the cherimoya is toxic, Furthermore, I have never had any adverse reaction to eating them. I don't eat the seeds.
Great tasting exotics that lack marketability. Surinam cherry, jaboticaba, and grumaichama.
Less than great exotics: jakfruit, green sapote, mamey sapote, inga bean, canistel, and many others.
Great and marketable exotics: mangoes, lychees, white pineapple, papaya, cherimoya, apple banana, mangosteen.
Others like passion fruit make good juice/jam.
I'm sure I've left out something. Oh yeah, I've eaten loquats in Spain that equaled any apricot
Personally I'm very content with whatever I have at the moment, even if it's just tangy Surinam cherries for my morning fruit.
The above followup was added by Howard Hill on July 26, 2009 at 10:46 am PST.
I love fruit, but when I eat it, it does not take much to satisfy. One large peach, or a couple smaller ones, plums or etc makes my body happy for hours, while working in the house or in the yard with my plants.
I see how many my wife eats, and I don't understand it, I would be swimming in something if I ate that many.
In the summer my body does not require very much food to keep me running.
I find if eat fruit, it quickly turns off my appetite and easily satisfies me, but if I eat certain foods I am a bit intolerant of and food chemical additives it makes it surge beyond being comfortable, and eating too much results. The more refined and chemicalized a food is, the more it causes me to over eat.
But simple foods and fruits do the exact opposite. I would love to eat more fruit then I do, some taste so good, but my body does not respond to it, it just says no. If I had more variety, I would most likely eat more during the day; I am working on the more variety thing.
David
The above followup was added by David Johnson, Waterford CA, zone 14 on July 26, 2009 at 1:27 pm PST.
I have no idea how much stone fruits I eat over Summer but it would be a serious amount, Averaging serveral kilos a day, I'm happy to eat more than 20 apricots at a time. It is possible to have had enough Cherries but you have to eat alot before that happens, Apricots seem to have no limit and they are my favorite fruit for bulk eating, there's nothing like picking an Apricot from the tree on a 40c day when it's been destroyed by the heat and turned to jam on the tree. You eat them while they are still steaming hot, it's the best :)
The above followup was added by Jason on July 26, 2009 at 7:28 pm PST.
Jason, I can easily pound down several kilos of fruits in one day. Sunday I must have eaten at least 30 pieces of fruit, peaches, pluots, plums, Summer apples, Summer pears (yummmmm) and apricots.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 27, 2009 at 6:26 pm PST.
That's SO not going to happen with White sapotes :)
The above followup was added by Jason on July 28, 2009 at 1:55 pm PST.
I eat one white sapote before going to bed just in case it really works as a saporific. :)
I agree, no way I would eat more than one or two white sapotes. Although the Santa Cruz variety almost had me wanting to eat quite a few more.
The above followup was added by Axel on July 28, 2009 at 4:57 pm PST.