mexican cloud forest sounds wonderful--especially for those of us who do not have quite as mild conditions as california. how does one attain plants from that region--let alone basic information on what plants might be appropriate. i have experimented with plants from the temperate rainforest of chile and argentina-and they have worked nicely drimys,euchryphia, nothofagus, luma, embothrium, etc. but where can one find sources for some more obscure species??? and while were at it--the highlands of new guinea sounds like there loaded with stuff that would work somewhere around here--at least in cal. thank you for establishing this site--its very interesting

The above followup was added by george in bandon, or on August 24, 1999 at 10:30 pm PDT.

It would be nice to compile a list of cloudforest plants that would also be hardy all the way up to Oregon and the milder parts of Washington. A surprising number of plants which thrive down here do well up there.

I'll put together a page of sources. The one catalog I can recoomend highly is Oregon Exotics. They're expensive, but they have a very nice selection.

One beautiful plant I can recommend is the highland papaya. Even if it gets hit by frost, it will come back the following year. There seems to be a significant variation in frost hardiness even within species. The three common types are Toronchi, Chamburro, and Babaco. Babaco seems to be the least hardy, but a fellow in Modesto, CA had his withstand the low 20's without even leaf damage.

The above followup was added by Axel on August 25, 1999 at 9:20 am PDT.

thanks for your response. i agree with you that oregon exotics has a very interesting selection--and i must emphasize that my experience with them is that --they are extremely slow in responding to communications and the size of their prices potentially outweighs the quality of their plants. i understand that a large amount of the price is to support their plant expeditions and thats important but the plants--even potentually hardy plants are often tiny, struggling, and not hardened off from the greenhouse. support their good work yes but also understand their limitations . also, their primary interest is eatables--what about the merely ornamental plants that might be growing nearby?? it would be nice to have access to them, too.

The above followup was added by george in bandon,or on August 25, 1999 at 6:00 pm PDT.

Axel, a few plants of the Mexican cloud forest are common up here. Choysia ternata is probably the most common shrub planted around apartment buildings.

Rarer are Mexican pines and oaks, some of the montane Agaves, Mexican equivalents of a lot of East Coast flora such as Cornus florida urbiniana (a semi-evergreen form of the Eastern Dogwood), Illicium mexicanum (counterpart of I. floridanum), Beschornerias (Yucca-like Amaryllids), the shrubby evergreen Monarda pringlei, etc.

Mexico's flora is so rich it is full of anamalies. Like shade-loving Agaves from pine forest understory (A. montana). Tropical Firs (Abies guatamalensis).

2 Mexican cloud-forest palms are common among palm collectors here (in other words, not so common, but collectors stumble accross them fairly predictably): Chameadorea radicalis and C. microspadix. You are probably familiar with them.

Unlike Ceroxylon they grow in the understory; one is practically herbaceous and the other is shrubby. However they are very hardy to cold and grow happily under dense shelter.

Almost impossible to find are Bomarias. These of course are not restricted to Mexico, but are widespread in the higher (and sometimes lower) elevations of Central and South America. Should be quite adaptable up here.

There is an interesting article in a recent issue of Pacific Horticulture about the shrubby Composites of the mountains of extreme southern Mexico. Unfortunately, that IS getting just a wee bit tropical. The article wouldn't commit to ultimate hardiness recommendations, but mentioned they survive into the low 20's F with damage that isn't severe. I would guess that they would be hardy here, just as the Tree Dahlias from just a little further north are.

I should mention that there ARE a few deep-tropical cloud forest inhabitants that have been found to be hardy here. But they are members of mostly temperate-climate genera such as Quercus, Gaultheria, and Rubus.

::i have experimented with plants from the temperate rainforest of chile and argentina

The flora of southern Chile is wonderful up here! The only problems I have had is with summer drought. The water here is so full of Chlorine that it's really hard on them. Once you get them through a few summers, so many of them are so much at home. Tropaeolum speciosum--not to mention practically all of the Alstroemerias--just grow like absolute weeds.

::where can one find sources for some more obscure species???

Heronswood Nursery. www.heronswood.com. The proprietor took a trip down to Chile and brought some things back. Unfortunately just the tip of the iceberg.

I have a fairly rare illustrated tome of "Flores sylvaticas de Chile". You'll never find even a third of the plants listed, and the book barely scratches the surface of the botanical wonders of Chile. Just to give you an idea: 3 species of hardyish Gesneriads (all gorgeous), hardyish Alonsoas, the artificial-looking Lapagaria rosea (and a few relations), dozens of beautiful Chloraea orchids, hardy (well, for us) tropical-looking Bignonias, some of the very, very few Bromeliads adapted to maritime climates, a Passiflora anomalously growing in a Mediterranean climate, dozens of Mutisias, Alstroemerias (and related genera you've never heard of), etc...

They have plants that seem just impossible. Relicts with strangely tropical affinities from before the Andes rose up, when Central Chile was wetter than it is now, and the survivors either cling to life in humid microclimates, or adapted to the cooler rainforest and now seem impossibly tropical for their cool, shady environment. Also a few interesting Gondwanic relicts too like your Embothrium and the ubiquitous Drimys (I have both of those 2), a number of southern conifers including the only truly hardy member of Araucaria (it's all over town, but I have the much rarer Saxegotha) and the gorgeous Podocarpus salignus, not to mention a beautiful species of Lomatia (another member of the Protaceae) I have been unable to obtain (the Australian ones are boringly plain).

Hummingbirds must be important pollinators in Chile--so many of the plants are obviously adapted for hummingbird pollination, even the ones that grow in deep shade. That's one of the startling things--glowing red flowers on something that lives happily in deep evergreen shade.

Also, strangely, plenty of true blues--a rare color in flowers.

The above followup was added by Rob Wagner on August 25, 1999 at 8:19 pm PDT.

Which passiflora anomalously grows in a Mediterranean climate? Chilean Flora sounds fascinating. We have
giant Jubea Chilensis specimens here on the central coast. I would love to learn more about the true "blues". Plants with these colors must be hard to find.

Strangely enough, much of the highland flora is adapted to hummingbirds. I have no idea why this is the case. Most passiflora, notably the Tacsonias, can only be pollinated by special hummingbirds with very long beaks. SO hummingbirds could not pollinate passiflora in the northern hemisphere, because their beaks are too short.

Chameadorea radicalis and C. microspadix do very well down here. They survive any freezes pretty much untouched.

You say "Relicts with strangely tropical affinities from before the Andes rose up." I always thought that part of the cycle stemmed from plants that gradually meandered their way up the slopes, and natural selection made sure that specific hardiness traits allowed these plants to survive the cooler temperatures.

This is really some real interestin stuff! I would like to expand this website to also cover all the interesting ornamental flora besides just edibles.

The above followup was added by Axel on August 26, 1999 at 12:15 am PDT.

I posted an answer, but it disappeared.

The Passionflower from the Med belt in Chile is P. pinnatistipula. It has a discontiguous range in both Chile and Peru, and in Chile it exists only in a few humid valleys, so I suspect it is a relict.

::Strangely enough, much of the highland flora is adapted to hummingbirds. I have no idea why this is the case

Because Hummingbirds are warm-blooded and can safely made it back home from the slopes should the temperature drop suddenly, as it is prone to doing in the thin air. In New Guinea the highest-ranging Rhododendrons are most commonly sunbird pollinated, as are the giant Lobelias on various African volcanoes (eg Mt. Killimanjaro) as well as Aloe polyphyllum in the Drakensberg.

::You say "Relicts with strangely tropical affinities from before the Andes rose up." I always thought that part of the cycle stemmed from plants that gradually meandered their way up the slopes, and natural selection made sure that specific hardiness traits allowed these plants to survive the cooler temperatures.

That happens too, but only slowly. Exceptions include when an epochal change occurs, such as when the Ice Ages wiped out most of northern Europe's flora, thus creating a habitat for Erica to invade from Africa. If the glaciers didn't wipe out the forests, Erica would not be able to adapt to living in the undergrowth (well, not for a very long time). Advanced families such as the Composites, the Grasses, and the Orchids, all of which have relatively efficient and effective seed-dispersal mechanisms, circumnavigated the globe quickly. Orchids must have reached their polar limits from their presumably tropical origins with remarkable speed.

Getting back to Chile, its Med belt has an incredible richness of climbers missing in southern Europe, the Western Cape region of South Africa, the west coast of the USA, or the Med belts of Australia. Growth in Med climates tends to be shrubby and what forest there is tends to be open--there is not much need for climbing something else to reach the light.

It is reasonable to suppose that the climate of Chile was different before the Andes rose up. What is now Mediterranean climate was probably subtropical rainforest as recently as about 5 million years ago.

The above followup was added by Rob Wagner on August 27, 1999 at 6:43 pm PDT.

anyone tried (excuse spelling) juania australis which comes from the juan fernandez islands?? rumer has it that it is quite lovely and exists in a very cool moist coastal environment analagous to conditions on our pacific coast. there seem to be other interesting trees and shrubs (including tree ferns) growing with it that would also be interesting to try out. on something completely different, has anyone tried a magnolia relative--telauma hodgsonii? appeaars to have really tropical looking flowers and foliage.

The above followup was added by george in bandon,oregon on August 28, 1999 at 12:23 am PDT.

Juanita Australis is a hansome palm, and it is quite hardy. But for some odd reason, there are no real mature specimens here. Apparently, the palm does quite well for a number of years, but then suddenly dies for no apparent reason. Probably, they get "too much" care from overzealous owners who see to it that the palm gets too much fertilizer and too much water. Once it is established, the palm should be left to its own devices.

Sadly enough, the people who have Juanita Australis hog them. It brings out the worst in collectors. There are a number of very "snobby" collectors who pay $$$ for the seeds, grow them, and then they eventually die.
Because of the "mean, stuck up collector" phenomena, this plant has never really taken off here, even though it probably would do quite well.

I really have a pet peeve about collectors who don't see to it that a given plant is spread around enough to insure its success in a given area. I realize it's "neat" to be the only one having a particular plant, but chances are, for a lot of unique plants, the actual plant in habitat is going extinct. What if a freeze or disease whipes out the specimens the hoarding owner has? So much for the plant altogether.
I have a lot of rare passifloras, and the first thing I do is make sure I root cuttings and spread it around to enough people who can ensure the plants remain readily available.

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on August 29, 1999 at 11:32 am PDT.

Are there any other possibilities besides the mean stuck up collector phenomenon for Juania spontaneously dying? Makes sense but it's important not to rule out other possibilities.

I'm certainly not expecting to find one anytime soon, but someday I would like to try one up here.

The above followup was added by Ian on August 30, 1999 at 12:37 am PDT.

Can anyone help??? Im deperately looking for fresh Ceroxylon seed,all species req with the exception of Parvum or Amazonicum.
Many thanks,
Nick

The above followup was added by Nick on March 30, 2000 at 10:05 am PST.

Juania appears to loathe warm nights and require fairly rich soil. Two out of five died in San Francisco's Strybing Arboretum during the El Nino summer of 1997, when nighttime temperatures remained at or above 60 degrees for several weeks. This is funny because ocean temperatures around its habitat island Isla Masatierra are often rather warm, and I would imagine night air temps as well; plus the palm used to range from sea level to the tops of the 2500'+ mountains. The older leaves always show the yellow stippling commonly associated in palms with magnesium deficiency. They're not very appealing as youngsters, though the photos I've seen of adults in cultivation near Valparaiso Chile and in habitat are enticing. Juvenile Ceroxylon parvifrons has it beat by a mile. The Juan Fernandez Islands strike me as a moister, southern counterpart to our Guadalupe Island or Channel Islands. The mysterious summer irrigation needs of Juania I think also contribute to its high mortality in cultivation in California. Does it want water or not? If so, just surface "fog-drip" or thorough soaking? Otherwise, the plants have yet to show damage in freezes as low as 24 degrees at Strybing, in San Francisco.

Ceroxylon parvifrons should definitely be tried up on the southern Oregon coast, and not just in Brookings--I would think it viable as far as the native Dudleya. I'm amazed by its vigor in SF, even compared to C. quindiuense. Plus, if indeed it's the same as C. utile, its frost tolerance is likely to be better than any other Ceroxylon, since its range would go as high as 13,000'+.

-Jason

The above followup was added by Jason D on June 30, 2000 at 11:09 am PST.

My limited, personal observations in San Francisco, California are that C. quindiuense requires about 30 years to form trunk while C. parvifrons under ideal conditions will trunk in 12 years. Parvifrons is much smaller, more beautiful, and better suited for small gardens. Parvifrons in SF has taken 28F with no damage at all; not even slight discoloration of the foliage.

The above followup was added by Darold on August 08, 2000 at 7:46 am PST.

Is there a local S.F. Bay Area source for plants of Ceroxylon parvifrons?

Brian

The above followup was added by brian on August 23, 2000 at 6:26 pm PST.

There arent much information and photos
of both species on the web and especializa
teds books.
-Really, i think that they arent very well knowed.People ask me abaut this new specie called Parajubaea sunkha. For the lovers of this palms, is possible to see somes in the fallowing webaddress (thanks to the courtesy of Michael Edwards in Brisbarne, Australia)

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Parajubaea/index.html

For more info or/and detail, feel free for emailme.Many thanks in advance.

Gaston Torres Vera
IPS member in Argentina

• PARAJUBAEAS

The above followup was added by Gaston Torres Vera on January 19, 2000 at 8:15 pm PST.

I undrstand this to be the hardiest wax palm taking frost all year round...smaller growing at the highest altitude palm in the world...!

Any one know where I can get Seeds...? I live in Chilliwack B.C. Canada and experiance two weeks to a month of freezing each Year ..USDA zone 8b.

Please let me Know..as I await eagerly...

The above followup was added by Ceroxylon utile on January 31, 2002 at 5:57 pm PST.

I like to read some description or diagnosis fo the Ceroxylon species from Peru. Maybe it would be possible to have some pictures. Until now I know four species recorded from Peru.

Please excuse me. I am living in Iquitos city where it no possibility to access to herbarium specimens.

Thanks

The above followup was added by Filomeno Encarnación on April 01, 2004 at 6:41 am PST.

Like to read some descriptioon or diagnosis of peruvian Ceroxylon species

The above followup was added by Filomeno Encarnación on April 01, 2004 at 6:45 am PST.