Axel

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Posts: 3533

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm

Location: Hanalei Bay, HI & Fallbrook, CA

Climate Zone: 12b/H2 & 10b/S23

I finally visited the Mango professor, a.k.a. Tim Thompson and got the low down on his mangoes. The story goes a bit like this. About 40 years ago, Tim brought in 10,000 seeds from select Indian varieties because he believes the Indian varieties contain a recessed hardiness gene. He chose particular Indian varieties. Which ones he will not divulge, it's a trade secret, but it has something to do with selecting mango varieties that originate close to where the glaciers used to come out of the Himalaya during the last ice age.

None of the parents show any hardiness at all, he has tested the all. But he believed there was a recessed hardiness gene in the gene pool, so he set out to grow out the 10,000 seeds. These all got exposed to unprotected Winter conditions in an area where frosts are regular, with 27-28F being the usual low. In addition to hardiness, he selected for two additional traits: flavor and anthracnose resistance. Before he even got to select for hardiness, he says the majority of the seedlings succumbed to powdery mildew, i.e. anthracnose. A bunch more got taken out by regular frosts, leaving a final batch of which a bunch more needed to be thrown out because of poor flavor.

The end result is a dozen or so varieties that have superior traits and appear to be good candidates for commercial mango cultivation in Southern California. The only one that was ripe when I visited was tequila sunrise, not only did it smell delicious, but it looked incredibly yummy. It was a smaller sized mango, maybe like a manila, but the size was plenty big for a commercial fruit. I suspect the smaller size means it's able to ripen with less heat. I am still waiting for them to ripen a little more, but based on the smell alone I suspect they will be delicious.

The picture below shows three beautiful tequila sunrise mangoes.



Time wise, it was the late 80's by the time Tim had made his selections, and when 1990 rolled around, Tim had all of these cultivars growing in his garden in Camarillo by the time the nasty December 1990 freeze rolled around. This was a century freeze, bringing far harsher conditions than any of his mangoes had been selected for. The freeze turned out to be a bonus, providing additional data on hardiness: Tim's garden bottomed out at 25F, and most of his mangoes got varying degrees of frost damage, with the exception for one particular variety: the antonio mango. The antonio suffered no cold damage at all, so he doesn't actually know how much cold the antonio mango can actually tolerate, he does know it's below 25F.

A big chunk of Tim's backyard was a mango forest, he had a lot of varieties growing close together. A lot of them were quite large. There were mangoes everywhere you looked.

Here are some photos of Tim's mango trees:







The 1990 freeze hit Northern California with far more vigor than Southern California. I was not able to find data for Camarillo, but Oxnard dropped only to 28F in 1990, but it's quite plausible that Camarillo did drop to 25F. Without real scientific data, it's impossible to know how hardy the antonio mango is, so Tim is getting commercial ranchers to try it from Fresno in the Central Valley down to the Mexican border. If you are looking for hardiness, the antonio mango is definitely the most promising, and may be the hardiest mango ever grown. The rest of Tim's mango selections should do well in Southern California but might be poor choices in Central California. Most of Tim's varieties definitely would expand mango cultivation in Southern California, but Antonio is showing a lot of promise and could expand commercial cultivation as far North as Fresno in Central California. Of course, a hardier mango could also bring mango cultivation into other parts of the Southeast such as Central and Northern Florida and parts of Georgia and Louisiana. But that would be another topic altogether.

Keep in mind that Tim selected his varieties to thrive in Southern California. Camarillo is about 10 miles from the ocean and Summer temperatures are consistently in the 80's with overnight lows in the 60's. Even if Antonio is hardier, it's not likely to produce quality fruit without adequate heat. This makes the Central Valley and inland Bay area climates a better bet than coastal climates devoid of Summer heat.

My conclusion is that Tim's mango cultivars show a lot of promise for easy and reliable mango production in most of sea level Southern California. The Antonio variety shows additional promise for warm Summer areas of Central California as well. Please note that Tim's mango varieties are all the rage throughout CRFG circles, and there simply isn't any stock available until Tim can secure production with several nurseries. Most likely, if you didn't already order from Tim or secured a purchase with your local CRFG chapter, you will need to wait until 2017 to get your hands on trees.

starch

 

Posts: 28

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:06 am

Location: Chandler, AZ

Climate Zone: USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 13

Nice history and writeup, thanks Axel! This is the most complete version I have heard yet.

Re: gathering winter temperature data for the Antonio mango

The Antonio mangos for sale at the AZRFG fall plant sale came with a condition: you had to be on the email list (which most of us are because we are members) so that you can provide a status on how your mango did over the winter. I think it is a great idea. It will be more systematic in the approach to getting data for this cultivar. Here in Phoenix and the surrounding areas, we are 10a - 9b. 10a or close to it in Phoenix and Scottsdale and the further out you go (like me in Chandler) you get into 9b. I tend to average 27-28 F for my lows. So I am very excited about this mango!

starch

 

Posts: 28

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:06 am

Location: Chandler, AZ

Climate Zone: USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 13

Axel wrote: Even if Antonio is hardier, it's not likely to produce quality fruit without adequate heat.

Well, we certainly have that around here

Ben

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Posts: 258

Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:00 am

Location: 39.5S, 177E

Climate Zone: NZ Z10

What a brilliant example of foresight. Superb concept, this guy should be given some kind of award. Just really wish I could test some of his selections myself!

What is the yearly mean temperature in this garden? It is not unusual for mangos to survive frost in subtropical regions, but it sounds like these cv.s could have potential for cooler climates, not just frosty but otherwise warm ones.

Axel

Site Admin

 

Posts: 3533

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm

Location: Hanalei Bay, HI & Fallbrook, CA

Climate Zone: 12b/H2 & 10b/S23

Ben, regular mangoes can survive some limited frost in subtropical regions. The dozen or so cultivars are a notch hardier than any of the existing cultivars because they were selected to grow in frost pits (low lying areas) in Southern California where regular cultivars fail. However, within the selected group, one cultivar, the antonio is significantly hardier than the others.

In addition, these varieties were selected to thrive in the average coastal Southern California climate. This means they are productive despite cool humid Springs and average Southern California heat, which is limited compared to a true subtropical climate like Central Florida.

Annual mean temperatures for these mango cultivars is as follows: 68F/43F Winter, 80F/61F Summer. As you can see, this represents limited heat accumulation.

Ben wrote:What a brilliant example of foresight. Superb concept, this guy should be given some kind of award. Just really wish I could test some of his selections myself!

What is the yearly mean temperature in this garden? It is not unusual for mangos to survive frost in subtropical regions, but it sounds like these cv.s could have potential for cooler climates, not just frosty but otherwise warm ones.

Ben

Cloudforest Expert

 

Posts: 258

Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:00 am

Location: 39.5S, 177E

Climate Zone: NZ Z10

Really interesting stuff Axel. Those climate stats fall easily into the same range as Northern (coastal) NZ as well, it would be great if someone would try importing some here. Not me on my budget however (last time I looked into it, it looked like import costs would be in the $20-30,000 per cv. range!).

I guess climatically appropriate for SoCal is not the same as for NZ with our higher rainfall and longer wet season. There have been a significant number of mature mango trees in NZ, but not many set fruit well. Still looks likely a mango will only perform here under plastic for both added heat and rain protection.

Axel, how many of Tim´s cv.s look suited to your new place? Do you have mangos there already?

Axel

Site Admin

 

Posts: 3533

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm

Location: Hanalei Bay, HI & Fallbrook, CA

Climate Zone: 12b/H2 & 10b/S23

Ben wrote:Really interesting stuff Axel. Those climate stats fall easily into the same range as Northern (coastal) NZ as well, it would be great if someone would try importing some here. Not me on my budget however (last time I looked into it, it looked like import costs would be in the $20-30,000 per cv. range!).

I guess climatically appropriate for SoCal is not the same as for NZ with our higher rainfall and longer wet season. There have been a significant number of mature mango trees in NZ, but not many set fruit well. Still looks likely a mango will only perform here under plastic for both added heat and rain protection.

Axel, how many of Tim´s cv.s look suited to your new place? Do you have mangos there already?

Ben, I am growing keitt and glenn. Tim's mangoes are ideally adapted to Camarillo, which makes them even more suitable here, we have more Summer heat and less Winter frost. I grow antonio and pineapple, but I would love to get my hands on tequilla sunrise, most beautiful fragrant mango I've ever seen.

raimeiken

 

Posts: 15

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:30 pm

Climate Zone: 9b

This sounds promising. I got my hands on a Pineapple variety at the AZRFG fall plant sale and have it planted in ground already. I'm excited to see how well it does here in Phoenix.

I wonder if we plant the seeds that come from these trees would turn out cold hardy as well? Would they be a good root stock I wonder.

barathr

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Posts: 108

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:27 pm

Location: East Bay, CA

Climate Zone: 10a

Axel, in your new climate in Fallbrook you should be able to grow a number of the cultivars that folks are having good luck with in San Diego, OC, and LA generally. These include (in addition to Glenn and Keitt) Lemon Zest, Valencia Pride, and some of the Indian cultivars. (I'm growing these and may be able to eventually provide you scions, though I'm sure your neighbors will have them...)

Harborseal

 

Posts: 5

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:14 am

Climate Zone: USDA 6a

Are any of Tim's mangoes small enough to grow in containers? I have plenty of heat in the summer but it would live in a grow room under a 1000 W HID in the winter.

If not which two of the condo mangoes would you suggest for that kind of situation?