WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife : Rare Fruits, Edibles and Permaculture with a focus on tropicals

Axel · by **Axel** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:18 pm

Axel: Site Admin; Posts: 3533; Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm; Location: Hanalei Bay, HI & Fallbrook, CA; Climate Zone: 12b/H2 & 10b/S23

Shame on the OMRI for certifying Sluggo to be organic. The people who make sluggo have been lying to us. Sluggo's listed active ingredient is Iron Phosphate, which has been shown to be harmless to humans and animals. In fact, it's also harmless to snails. So how then does it work? It turns out that there is another hidden active ingredient in Sluggo that the makers of Sluggo don't list: it's called EDTA. While EDTA itself isn't harmful to humans or even pets, it's the EDTA which makes the iron phosphate toxic to snails by giving them iron toxicity. In Australia, the law requires that this ingredient be listed. But since corporate interests control our govt, there apparently is no need to include it on the label in the US.

As it turns out, iron phosphate combined with EDTA isn't just toxic to snails, it's toxic to dogs and cats. In case you wonder why dogs and cats would even eat iron phosphate, well, they don't, but the other so called "inert" ingredient in Sluggo is wheat, which just about all animals are attracted to, including earth worms, which die from eating the entire sluggo mixture.

So here we have it, we've been lied to because of a loophole - ETDA is listed as an inert ingredient. Now Sluggo is still less likely to poison your cat and dog, but reports are slowly coming in that it's happening. And worse yet, the EDTA is bad for the environment and so is the fact that the stuff is killing the earthworms in your garden. At least the old metaldehyde-based snail bait didn't kill earthworms, and at least it listed its toxic ingredients.

For a balanced view on the subject, take a look at Jeff Gillman's discussion of the issue on the Washington State University Extention website: https://sharepoint.cahnrs.wsu.edu/blogs ... nails.aspx. The entire article is quoted below for reference.

I plan on cautiously continuing the use of the product because my dog hasn't ever shown any interest in it so far, but I will be using it far more sparingly than before. But what irritates me the most is that not only I've been lied to, but the OMRI has failed to protect both the consumer and the environment. The OMRI really doesn't have much credibility in my book, there are so many more examples of their ridiculous ratings, which makes me question the value of both organic gardening and buying organic produce.

Shame on the OMRI, but also shame on Monterey Lawn and Gardens for being so dishonest.

Upon Further Review…Iron Phosphate for Slugs and Snails
Posted by Jeff Gillman

I’m not going to sugar coat it – I’ve been too cavalier in recommending iron phosphate for slugs and snails.

A few days ago Erin Harris put a comment in my post about dandelions asking whether those iron phosphate baits you can buy for slugs might also be toxic to earthworms. The answer is yes – they might. And not only that, these iron phosphate baits can also be toxic to other animals such as dogs.

How bad might these products be for dogs and earthworms you ask? I don’t think anyone knows exactly, but to my knowledge this is the most recent paper on the subject. And here’s an abstract on dog poisonings.

Now, based on the data I’ve seen on poisoning incidents, iron phosphate is less likely to poison your dog than its closest competitor, metaldehyde (though the iron phosphate seems more likely to hurt earthworms than the metaldehyde). I’m not going to stop recommending iron phosphate – Still, I can’t recommend it quite as freely as I have been in my talks -- I need to add some real caveats.

So then the question is, how did I not know about the potential problems of iron phosphate? Simple. I assumed that the compounds listed on the active ingredient list were really the only ingredients I needed to think about. Silly me. Just like Round-up, and almost any other pesticide you can name, there are other ingredients that help the active ingredients work -- and that could cause issues. For Round-up, the soaps mixed in there to help the product stick can hurt frogs or other amphibians. For Iron phosphate, the extra ingredient that could do some damage is EDTA.

So, you’re asking, what is EDTA? EDTA is a chemical which makes metals more soluble, called a chelate. In iron phosphate products EDTA helps the iron to be taken up into the body of the snail or slug making it work much better than it might otherwise. EDTA is also used in fertilizers so that elements (usually iron) are taken up more readily (because they’re soluble). But because EDTA makes metals more soluble, it also helps them get to places they shouldn’t go – like into an earthworms body.

Now don’t go thinking EDTA is bad. It’s not. In fact, if you ever ingest lead or some other metal you’ll be thankful for EDTA because it is used to help clear potentially toxic metals from the body. EDTA is even present in some of our foods for various reasons. That said, as with any chemical (including water!), it is possible for EDTA to do things we don’t want it to do in the wrong circumstances. And that’s why we need to be more careful with its use.

As I said before, I’m still OK with iron phosphate products, especially as they compare to metaldehyde products, but you can bet I’ll be spending more time stressing its drawbacks. I’ll also be spending more time touting beer.
For slugs of course!

Now, a question for you. These iron phosphate products are currently listed by the OMRI (Organic Materials Review Institute) and some labels list it as being safe to use around pets and wildlife. If the products include EDTA, should that be the case? (You can look up EDTA in Wikipedia if you want to see how it’s made.) Are you comfortable with using EDTA in organic production? Does it matter to you if it’s used as a fertilizer vs. as an ingredient in a pesticide?
May 10, 2012

MrClint · by **MrClint** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:57 pm

MrClint: Posts: 39; Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:39 pm; Location: Lake Balboa CA; Climate Zone: USDA 10

That's a nasty bit of news. I cut back on using Sluggo pellets because the local wild birds were eating them up. Now I won't drop another pellet until I hear they are completely safe for wildlife.

cchan · by **cchan** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:05 am

cchan: Cloudforest Expert; Posts: 306; Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:10 am; Location: San Francisco; Climate Zone: 9-10

I never used sluggo before. How I generally catch slugs with is skewers and turning over stones.

An alternative method is using beer in a container. But it has to be replenished every time it goes flat.

DavidLJ48 · by **DavidLJ48** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:49 pm

DavidLJ48: Cloudforest Expert; Posts: 2283; Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:38 pm; Location: San Joaquin Valley, CA; Climate Zone: Sunset Zone 14, USDA zone 9b

I use sluggo, really don't like being lied too again, had to give up Ironite last time. Like you Axel, find it is not as bad as the chemical pesticide ones. I already don't use it that often, only when they present a problem, most often in the spring, when they first wake up. I only apply when they are feeding on my life plants, and then only apply in small areas, where they causing the problem. I let the slugs and snails alone as long as they leave me alone.

I have to use something, unless I import greese or a few chickens into my yard. Way too many to leave alone, there are tens of thousands I would imagine in my whole yard, Not something you can take care of with a few nightly trips in the yard with a stick, like I used to do years ago, before my yard became so lush with plants and trees.

Gee, maybe Sluggo does help to take out a few of the earwigs, if they comsume it too, that would be nice, if that happened. I guess I could set a lot of beer out in my yard, but then would probably have drunk cats and dogs, and still lots of snails, because they drank it up first. Ha ha ha ha, but not really funny.

David

Oolie · by **Oolie** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:57 pm

Oolie: Cloudforest Expert; Posts: 385; Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 5:34 pm; Location: Spring Valley; Climate Zone: sunset 23

It seems less like a like than overlooking the obvious.

It's unfortunate that some don't consider possibilities like this.

That being said, how high is the actual risk?

That is worth consideration as well.

DavidLJ48 · by **DavidLJ48** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:43 am

DavidLJ48: Cloudforest Expert; Posts: 2283; Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:38 pm; Location: San Joaquin Valley, CA; Climate Zone: Sunset Zone 14, USDA zone 9b

How high is the Risk ?????

Here are some experiences and thoughts.

My soil is covered with mulch and generally kept damp, and I have tons of earthworms; have been using Sluggo for years. Earthworms are very productive under good condtions. If most of the earthworms are under the mulch, how much affect would it have on them. I guess, does the effect of the combination last after the pellet disolve, and soak into the mulch and soil. How does mold effect the pellet and it poisous effect, I normally see most of the pellets mold in not too long of time.

I also use it only where lots of snails and slugs exist, so how much would even be available for earthworms or other things to eat.

Just had a thought, if so poisous, I wonder if it would take care of the termites under my largest avocado tree.

David

Oolie wrote:It seems less like a like than overlooking the obvious.

It's unfortunate that some don't consider possibilities like this.

That being said, how high is the actual risk?

That is worth consideration as well.

Oolie · by **Oolie** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Oolie: Cloudforest Expert; Posts: 385; Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 5:34 pm; Location: Spring Valley; Climate Zone: sunset 23

EDTA is really most effective at high pH like most other chelating agents, and it will quickly reach equilibrium with most soils (depending on a number of factors). It will only be a danger as long as it is still attached to the grain. Soon as you add alot of water, you will wash away the chelated iron. It will then go into the soil where the chelated complex will only last as long as the pH remains high, the iron ion will be released as the pH decreases (this happens quicker in acidic soils).

Axel · by **Axel** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:11 am

Axel: Site Admin; Posts: 3533; Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm; Location: Hanalei Bay, HI & Fallbrook, CA; Climate Zone: 12b/H2 & 10b/S23

Today, I received a nasti-gram from Neudorff, the company that manufactures iron phosphate slug bait (Sluggo). They are accusing me of defamation, claiming I have no scientific evidence for my claims.

My original post only highlighted the blog of Jeff Gillman from Washington State University Extension, assuming everyone would read it and find the sources. Since I didn't publish the sources, it's time I remedy this issue. Here are the Scientific papers that call out the problems with Sluggo:

1) The relative toxicity of metaldehyde and iron phosphate-based molluscicides to earthworms
Soil Ecology Laboratory, Department of Entomology, The Ohio State University,
400 Aronoff Laboratory, 318 West 12th Avenue,
Columbus, OH 43210, USA
University of Hawaii, 200 Kawili St., Hilo Hawaii 96720, USA
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~soile ... n%2028.pdf
Slugs are suppressed by cereal flour-based baits or pellets containing metaldehyde, or containing iron phosphate plus chelating agents, which are also consumed by earthworms and other invertebrates. These studies compared the effects of metaldehyde and iron phosphate alone, with those of iron phosphate plus chelating agents EDDS and EDTA, and of the chelating agents alone on earthworms. OECD artificial soil test: Earthworms (Eisenia fetida) were exposed directly to the molluscicides in arti- ficial soil. The test chemicals were: metaldehyde; iron phosphate; ethyldiaminetetraceticacid (EDTA), ethylenediaminesuccinicacid (EDDS) and mixtures of iron phosphate and these latter two chemicals. LD50 values were more than 10,000 mg kg for metaldehyde and iron phosphate, 156.5 mg kg for EDTA, 145.6 mg kg for EDDS, 72.2 mg kg for iron phosphate/EDTA, and 83.0 mg kg for iron phosphate/EDDS.
Microcosm test: Four mature Lumbricus terrestris were exposed in each microcosm (15 cm diam. 30 cm deep) to pellets containing: no active ingredient; metaldehyde (4%); iron phosphate/EDTA (1%) (Sluggo); iron phosphate (3%); EDTA (3%); EDDS (3%). Metaldehyde and iron phosphate did not affect earthworm feeding, growth or mortality. Sluggo decreased earthworm feeding and caused loss of weight and mortality. Earthworms consumed fewer pellets containing EDDS or EDTA and lost weight.

2) Acute toxicity in five dogs after ingestion of a commercial snail and slug bait containing iron EDTA
SL Haldane*, RM Davis
Australian Veterinary Journal
Volume 87, Issue 7, pages 284–286, July 2009
This case series of five dogs describes the effects of ingesting large amounts of an iron EDTA snail-bait product. In all cases signs of toxicity occurred between 6 and 24 h after ingestion and included abdominal pain and haemorrhagic gastroenteritis. Two of the dogs had pretreatment serum iron levels measured and in both cases the levels were above normal limits. All of the dogs were treated with iron chelation therapy and supportive care including intravenous fluids, analgesics, gastric protectants and antibiotics. Chelation therapy with desferrioxamine mesylate did not cause adverse effects in any of the dogs and all survived to discharge. The effects of iron EDTA snail bait in dogs requires further study and minimum toxic doses need to be established.

3) The 2007 NOSB has this objection to EDTA: "EDTA is not degraded rapidly in the environment and is the most abundant anthropogenic chemical in some European surface waters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDTA#_note-1 accessed 1 August 07). Its strong chelating power can enhance the movement of metals such as Zn, Cd, Ni, Cr, Cu and Fe in soil and river sediments. EDTA is very soluble in water and is not sequestered in municipal sewage treatment plants (Frank and Rau 1990, in petition). The biodegradation rate strongly depends on the metal complexed to the EDTA. Ca and Mg complexes are easier to degrade than Cu and Fe for example (see EU Commission risk assessment on EDTA p 12 in petition). Photo degradation appears easier. However, the high solubility in water can limit the time exposed to sunlight. Since EDTA is inert under some environmental conditions and rapidly degrades under other conditions (very alkaline water - such as in waste water treatment from paper pulp mills (EU Commission risk assessment on EDTA), some environmental accumulations must occur."
See http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile ... RDC5066636

Finally, note that Australia requires EDTA to be listed in the equivalent Australian products, since without EDTA, the product would be completely ineffective.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

I've invited Neudorff to provide Scientific papers and results that address these issues. I'll post again if/once I receive any relevant information from them.

DavidLJ48 · by **DavidLJ48** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:07 am

DavidLJ48: Cloudforest Expert; Posts: 2283; Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:38 pm; Location: San Joaquin Valley, CA; Climate Zone: Sunset Zone 14, USDA zone 9b

Axel,

I can see the companies concern, but if the facts stand, and have merit, then they should accept it and go on. These kinds of product strong arm scenario's often play out in TV shows; guess it is a bit more frightful, when it comes home.

So much is happening today,, to cover up things like this, and companies like Monsanto and etc are continuing to push limits, but people need to know. It seems when they play dirty and threatened, what more are they afraid of, that the people will find out about.

Interesting they picked up on it, on Cloudforest Cafe, but I guess companies run searches all of the time, to find emerging problems. I think it now shows how wide spread Cloudforest is now known. I guess turning off public web access would end any future problems, but then that would defeat the purpose of sharing what we all know and learn.

It happened to Garden Watchdog, TYTY Nursery and its sister companies sued them to have the peoples comments about them taken from their site. I checked after some one told me that, and sure enough, not any posting for TYTY Nursery, and I assume now, no future ones can ever be posted.

There is something wrong, we know that, when a company and or corporation has more power then the people. But we see it too, in politics and elections, money controls our goverment.

I have always liked Cloudforest Cafe, we seem to normally attact more serious fruit and plant people. Which is the opposite of some sites I have visited, who are over run by busy body wantabees, looking for a fun time. I think a lot of who you and attracting like mind thinkers, has keep it that way.

.

David

James (Fremont,CA) · by **James (Fremont,CA)** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:15 pm

James (Fremont,CA): Cloudforest Expert; Posts: 164; Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:23 pm; Climate Zone: 9/10

Axel,
Apparently, the NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD had similar concerns about EDTA at least in 2007, don't know if this is the current view or not:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5066636

Should be interesting to see how this pans out... good luck.

WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

Re: WARNING: Sluggo Toxic for people and wildlife

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