Axel

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I don't see any mention of stone and pome fruit, so yes, the combo you mention should work well as a fruit forest. The original intent of the thread was to point out where fruit forest fail. I still have successful patches of fruit forest, but these are predominantly subtropical with a few interspersed apple and peaches. When the pome or stone fruit species are solo and surrounded by subtropicals, the forest concept then seems to work.

DavidLJ48

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Where did you pass through the Central Valley, I guess the scene you painted, is more applicable on the southern end but not so much or at all for the rest.

For farmers, water is cheap, at least in this area, they can buy 1 acre foot of water for less then $10; as a home owner, I wish I could get such prices.

There is lots of water in NorCal, the problem is, a lot goes to SoCal. I see lots of trees here going out, being push over and cut for fire wood or shredded. But it is about tree replacement from age or change of variety of crop, to make more profit or stop farming at a loss.

At times I do see dying trees, but the orchards are usually own by someone who just stops caring for them, from old age or a new owner who does not care about them.

I guess to someone who was not born here, it might seem dry and desolate. In the more arid areas of CA, it is more noted, that where water does not flow, crops do not grow.

David

rudder wrote:

DavidLJ48 wrote:
Now they are planted on more aggressive peach roots normally, more nematode resistant, more resistive to root rot and shallow rooted and need water quite frequently. Now farmers want faster growth, sooner production, some are now planing them in tree hedge rows, and they are failing and being replaced now in some instances every 15 to 20 years. Yet, you can find some volunteer almond seedlings coming up where every there is enough water to get a start and survive; not being water at all, except rain. That is how almonds used to be grown by Spain and etc, until US farmers started to grow almonds and stopped importing and started exporting; same story for many things including more recently, Pistachios.

David

That's also why the central Valley is a dustbowl. Did it ever occur to those folks that maybe perhaps someday, cheap water might not be a reality? Driving through there last summer was like something out of an apocalyptic movie, lots of old stone fruit trees and almond trees toppled over against the dust-laden abyss.


In response to the title of this thread:
My Loquat, Banana Passion Fruit, Tomato, Rose-Scent Geranium, Dragonfruit, Sweet Potato, Okinawan Spinach, Aloe Vera, Jelly Bean Palm, Cuban Oregano, Banana, Strawberry, Onion guild begs to differ.

Axel

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Yes, I agree, I've not seen any "dusbowl" in the Central Valley. It gets pretty barren once you get south of Fresno towards the Western side of the valley, but that seems like a natural transition zone towards the more arid southwest. The coastal mountains tend to harvest the rains so that the Western side of the valley is drier, especially towards the South.

Brian

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I'm pretty sure I saw pomegranates the last time I drove down . .. for the first time.

So_Cal_Mike

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Brian wrote:I'm pretty sure I saw pomegranates the last time I drove down . .. for the first time.

Yes, you are correct... The last time I drove the I-5 I noticed they were putting in pomegranate orchards also.

DavidLJ48

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If someones view of the Central Valley, was just from traveling on I-5, I can see why it might appear as a dust bowl, of sorts; and some places, even south 99 are like that.

To repeat what I said, and what Axel said too, south of Fresno gets a bit dry and desolate looking, and some of the small towns look like dumps from the road, almost a picture out of a post World War Three nuclear war movie. It looked more like that, years ago, but the area is changing, A lot of the look was just poverty along 99.

Even my wife does not like the area south of Fresno. But I see farming moving up near the Freeways, and new shopping centers being built in many of the areas. That part of the state was more row crops and grapes, but as other trees and crops are going in, that is changing. Down there at one time, mostly large farmers and lots of farm workers, so lots of poverty.

What makes Central and Northern CA so different, mostly smaller farms, and the vast acreage of fruits and nuts and grapes, and rice fields and etc they own; though corps are gaining some foothold.

The farther north one goes, the more rain it normally gets, but even around Sacramento, when it dries out in summer, it looks the same, dry, dry grass, except they have oak trees, where as in to the south, they only exist in the river basins, and in the foothills on both sides of the valley, more so on the east side.

The big problem with the extreme west side of the valley, south of the Delta is water, lack of water,and salty water, which was why they built the Federal San Luis dam and watering system. Look at Kern in Newman, his cities water wells pump out water, with a salt level over 350 ppm. Even Jason farther up north, has similar issues, but not so bad.

Someone online I-5, I think around Vernalis, is growing citrus and etc, must be a corporation, must of gained access to canal water, the trees look good, and probably escape some of the winter lows the rest of the valley gets.

To see the valley agriculture at it best, one needs to visit Stanislaus and San Joaquin Counties and some of the fruit growing areas just below Redding, then you have the citrus in the eastern hills, south of Fresno.

I don't remember how it compares now, but at one time decades ago, CA produced 3/4s of the fresh produce for the entire United States, especially vegetables.

David

rudder

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I believe. So no one's seen those "Congress Created Dust Bowl" signs that are up all over the place?

I suppose most of my exposure to the valley is from driving from Reno to Santa Barbara on the 5.

rudder

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Axel wrote:I don't see any mention of stone and pome fruit, so yes, the combo you mention should work well as a fruit forest. The original intent of the thread was to point out where fruit forest fail. I still have successful patches of fruit forest, but these are predominantly subtropical with a few interspersed apple and peaches. When the pome or stone fruit species are solo and surrounded by subtropicals, the forest concept then seems to work.

I just reread this whole thread, and I understand where you are coming from Axel.
It would be great to see people start to select varieties based more and more on their resilience.

I can almost see the "propaganda" about fruit forests that you must have been talking about. Probably some flier stenciled by crust punks in downtown Santa Cruz.

It's too bad what happened to permaculture. Bill Mollison was an encyclopedia and combined different scientific fields to create something very innovative for the future of food production. Now that Geoff Lawton is the leader of the permaculture movement, it is all about fluffy words. I just don't like where it has headed, and the image that it has.

It's now more popular, and with that comes the dumbing down. Permaculture is now more of a pseudo-science fad for neo-hippy university students. If you read Bill Mollison's 600 page designer manual it's somewhat hard to believe permaculture has degenerated to the degree it has. I don't even like to say I do permaculture anymore or practice food forestry, because I feel like it discredits me. I'm going to start coining my own buzzwords, so I don't have to associate myself with the neo-hippies. (Sorry if I offend anyone here - I don't mean to.)

Locally we have examples of "food forests" where these neo-hippies think you can just throw in a bunch of grafted, dwarf, deciduous fruit trees with an herb layer of comfrey, yarrow, mint, and other herbs and that constitutes a novel food forest. I call it an orchard

To me the food forest concept is about creating artificial ecosystems. So, yes, it's a valid point that you have Axel. Stone fruits with herb understories don't even come close to mimicking the natural ecosystem of the area.

A food forest would be more along the lines of what nullzero outlines in his first post of this thread... Experimenting with lesser-known plants that are native to climatically similar regions and then seeing what works and what doesn't and making adjustments.

Even stone fruit will grow as street trees in my area though. The purple leaf plums do great around here and taste great. They don't really need any irrigation either once they are mature.

Axel

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Rudder, well said, that's a much better summary of my views. I use the 600 page manual and apply my knowledge of physics and botany to make high density work. The food forest concept works for subtropical trees but not for weak, over domesticated fruits on weakened rootstock.

The movement is all fluff now. It's a lot of people who don't know much but want to do the cool progressive thing.

DavidLJ48

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I know I have said this before, but for me it works, but then maybe it depends on what one's idea of a food forest is. Mine is one of well pruned lower trees, making sure each one gets the sun and etc it needs. What does not exist is a lot of space between the trees; it was a challege to figure out in the beginning, what spacing to plant most trees and palms. It seems like we decided before, that climate was a big part of what would work for any individual; here I get lots of sun, actually too much heat and sun.

Keeping just enough space between trees, so I can walk and barely move a ladder around, guess that will be a on going challege. Avocado trees are small, except for my original tree. Have kept it down, but have thought of building a ground based, leg platform to work from, to prune and pick fruit, to let it grow a bit higher. Think it would be fun to have these lofty perches in larger trees in my yard, to find places to work and places to enjoy my yard and relax on warm sunny days.

To me, a food forest is a yard, devoid or mostly devoid of lawn and tradional modern groomed landscaping, more for show, but of no real worth then what you see. I would love to have a fancy ornimental part to my yard too, but with limited space, I choose one over the other and mix a few ornimental things in. Though my yard is not completely food only, I do have my palms, some produce, but many don't, I enjoy their look, but they do help to beautify and protect the entire yard system.

Some might say, I have the time, I'm retired, but actually I am a disabled Vet, with very limited strength and energy and don't spend that much time in my yard maintaining, I strive to do things, so it is low maintance, except for pruning. with increased pruning, I can see I might need to get a shredder, won't be able to handle it all in the near future, can barely keep up now, as I cut all small wood in small pieces and cut larger into fire wood for my wife camping trips.

David