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Cool growing bananas
I ask this question because down here on the Central Coast of California where it is quite cool in the Summer, Musa Bajoo actually grows as poorly as any other bananas, so it's not really worth bothering with.
We have finally identified a couple of banana species, dwarf Namwah and Misi Luki, that seem to show promise as being significantly more cool tolerant than regular bananas. They start growing much sooner, long before musa bajoo or any other standard bananas have any growth activity at all.
So my question would be, has anyone tried these up there? It would seem worth while to get them into cultivation in the PNW, so that we can gather more data on their cool weather tolerance.
You can do a google search on Musa "Misi Luki" and Musa "dwarf namwah". Namwah seems even more cold tolerant, with a stem that has withstood 25F in the Central Valley of California.
Frankly, I don't understand what all the fuss about musa bajoo is all about. Seems like it's a bunch of mis-information, because it doesn't do better than regular bananas here in the cool ocean weather.
Axel
The following thread was started by Axel on June 07, 2005 at 8:30 am PST
I can be for certain that my basjoos will be coming up next spring every time. The basjoo is root hardy and reliable.
I'd love to do some studying up on the Misi luki and Dwarf Namwah, does anyone have a site that tells more about them and their hardiness???
The above followup was added by Kenton on June 07, 2005 at 3:51 pm PST.
my experience is...
Musa basjoo is a reasonable grower in cool weather. Certainly my clump has leafed out well by May 1. It is definately by far the hardiest of all bananas.
The above followup was added by Ryan, Philomath, OR on June 07, 2005 at 4:10 pm PST.
Conditions vary
I have a few Musa Bajoo and several other large bananas. One has giant red leaves, the other has giant green leaves. With the lack of hard frosts; they have grown pretty big in one year. I basically live right on the coastal fog-banks of Humboldt. My bananas love it here, where its much colder in the summer than further up the coast to B.C. The coastal temps here are cooler than the central coast, w/ the exceptions of say, Big Sur or Pacifica, and the Moss Landing areas of Cal. I give the Bajoo TLC and fertilizer, planted in the S.western corner of my front yard; the Bajoo and Red bananas grow happily. I think the Bajoo are diverse w/ respects to their areas of growth. I tossed out the names of my other large Bananas, so I can't give you their exact names. They hold their own here in the fog and wind, just like the Bajoo. Zone 8b does provide more warmth, so leaf coloration in the Bajoo is a deeper green; when compared w/ the foggy summer cold of 10a. It is the fog that helps generate the 10a hardness. There is no fuss, there is only Paradise. Matt-10a
The above followup was added by matt on June 07, 2005 at 4:32 pm PST.
Humboldt 10a
I was wondering where exactly 10a in Humboldt is? Manilla is really mild, and could be 10a, but I noticed that Garberville and Redway were considered zone 10 on some sites, but I doubt a zone 10 can get snow occasionally.
Europe seems to be leading the way as far as alot of people testing new Musa's. I just wish it was cheaper to get the import permits for species such as Musa 'Tibet'.
The above followup was added by whitney on June 07, 2005 at 6:24 pm PST.
Root hardiness
Wouldn't pretty much any banana be root hardy up in the PNW? They're root hardy to 20F, seems that would cover just about most locations up there provided they get mulched. is Musa Bajoo that much hardier?
I would think it would make more sense to find a banana that grows well when lows are in the upper 30's to low 50's and highs are in the upper 50's to low 70's. That would lengthen the growing season.
Matt, where in Humbolt county are you? How different would Pacific Grove be from say Mendocino? Big sur is actually pretty warm compared to Pacifica.
Axel
The above followup was added by Axel on June 07, 2005 at 6:26 pm PST.
Zone mixtures
Whitney, I could throw a stone into the village of Manila from my house. I can't find the snow fall on record for this area. It hasn't snowed down at ocean level many years. Humboldt has large mountains and mild coastline, the inland regions like Garberville, Willow Creek (both get into the 100F in late summer on hot days) are in Western Gardeners zone 14/ 15, or USDA's 9b. Zone 14 does on occasions get snow. In zone 17 (10a) where I live, the climate is much milder and may never get a snow fall. I have seen it snow several inches in Santa Rosa Ca., zone 14. This winter, the redwood covered mountains behind my house were blanketed w/snow down to 500 feet . So yes it snows in Humboldt, and no, it doesn't snow in Humboldt. The topography of this area is very diverse w/ several nice big river plains, and sanddunes at the coast, redwood forests, lagoons, and many swimming holes in the mountains. USDA Zone 10a (W.G 17)weaves in and out along the immediate coastline, from Eureka, south. Zone 10a covers a couple of miles at best inland in N.Cal. This particular spot of the north coast is oddly mild, rarely reaching 80F. I am pretty certain that the area I live in is 10a. I could drive to 9b in a matter of minutes though. I'm not an expert of the land, I'm more like a care-taker. I learn as I go. Buenas Noches, Matt 10a
Axel, I think Pacific Grove is warmer than Mendocino, you can find the averages at weather.com. Your right, Big Sur wasn't a good example. Pacifica is more likely the most similar climate. The ants love to eat my cactus. I sprayed the hell out of them today. Hope the Oputias aren't damaged by the yard Raid. ditto
The above followup was added by matt on June 07, 2005 at 8:39 pm PST.
Sunset zone 17 is 9b/10a
For Sunset zone 17 I think it's hit and miss on zone 9b or 10a. Who knows for sure, some spots are milder than others. You can have regular frost in one place, and it will rarely drop below 40F only a mile away.
Same with the heat, Half Moon Bay and Pacifica rarely get above 62F in July, yet some of the coastal cities closer to Oregon have a July average near 68F. It's all about topography.
It has snowed all the way to sea level on the Central Coast. It's rare, but it has happened, and I am sure it's snowed at sea level in Humbolt county as well. It has also dropped as low as 20F, but it happens so rarely, you can't use that as a metric to garden by.
Because we're so darn heat deprived on the coast, we can learn a lot from exotic gardeners in the PNW. I've had lots of days both Summer and Winter where Seattle has me beat on daytime highs. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Seattle's heat units aren't about the same as what we get down here.
Happy gardening in the fog.
Axel
The above followup was added by Axel on June 07, 2005 at 9:39 pm PST.
zone 17
Sounds like you are in Arcata or eastern part of Eureka. I'm in Eureka and have noticed a huge difference between here and places like Manilla. No leaf loss on bananas there and almost complete leaf to partial stem loss here. Ensete Ventricosum seems to only stop for a couple months in manilla. I'm growing a few there and some protected ones here, but am planning on trying some down south high in the mountains to test cold hardiness.
Trying M.balbisiana, M.sikkimensis(2 types), M.basjoo, M.initerans, M.thompsonii, M.sp nov 'Big flower', M.'Bhutan', M.nagesium, M.violescens, E.ventricosum, and some others.
I wouldn't doubt that you live in zone 10, but I usally just round down when selecting plants around here just to be safe.
The one plant that I'm really hoping will make here it is Dypsis baronii.
The above followup was added by whitney on June 07, 2005 at 11:49 pm PST.
redway/garberville
I meant in my first post that it snows in Redway and Garberville and on one site they are considered zone 10? I can't understand these zone allocations, but you would probally have to live here to get it right.
I wonder if there is a high temp zone indicator?
The above followup was added by whitney on June 07, 2005 at 11:55 pm PST.
Zone Overlapage
There are some ambiguous zone overlapage in a few spots of the west. This makes me think of the eastern Mojave region, entering into Utahs s.western corner. Also around lake Mead, some have said is misrepresented on the Western Gardener's zones. Some feel like zone 11 should reach a little further into Utah. Zone 13 could, if you go by temp. comparison of Yuma,az be considered in Overton, Nev.
If you read the Moapa palm report of that region, some interesting and disturbing facts surface re: the destruction of native palms and the real climate of that area.
I saw a really nice Washy. growing in Redway, it must have been 20 feet or so.
matt 10a
The above followup was added by matt on June 08, 2005 at 6:47 am PST.
Might be a threashold issue
Axel, to answer your question:
within my experience, Musa basjoo outperforms any other banana tried here--and it performs quite well.
Musa x paradisiaca deteriorates over time. It has practically no top-hardiness, and freezes back pretty reliably. I don't know about unusually cool-tolerant varieties of it like 'Rajapuri'. I see from an Internet search that Misi Luki bears in New Zealand (even the subtropical parts of which get hit by cool weather even in the middle of summer). An on-line catalog suggests feeding the fruit to animals but another webpage suggests they are palatable to humans.
M. balbisiana--those wild plantains that grow like weeds in moist open places in the warmer parts of Asia--will grow here and produces a short clump. Someone correct me if I am wrong, tho: I don't think it outperforms a Ba-jiao.
M. sikkimensis does not grow as fast, at least, not at first. The largest specimens I have seen here are not as big as the largest specimens of M. basjoo I have seen. Of course, it has its own merits (the red splashes on the leaves).
The shoot of M. 'Yunnan', for lack of a better name, rots in the winter, even after careful protection of it. My guess is it would need something more akin to a greenhouse to protect the shoot. Many layers of bubble-wrap didn't work. I have heard similar stories from others. It's a beautiful plant, but not at all top-hardy.
My ba-jiao hit about 12 feet. I thought it was pretty good. I have seen another one in town that is just enormous and dwarfs mine. It bears copious--inedible!--fruits. Their crowns are quite full and impressive-looking.
There is probably a temperature threashold that you are just on the other side of. Ba-jiaos break out into growth in the warmer parts of the Puget Sound basin just rediculously early. Mine was leafing out in February this year. They hold their leaves until about mid-December. Some years they never freeze back at all. It is amazing to see the leaves still standing seemingly undamaged after a light frost.
Ba-jiaos are just weedy-tough. I moved 3 shoots, and massacred the roots and leaves to do it. They are recovering and growing along.
Musa basjoo is certainly native somewhere in southwestern China (where else would it be from? Musas proabably got to Asia via India; Yunnan is one of the next stops when things start making their way east). Even the name "basjoo" is a Dutch transliteration of the Japanese version of the Chinese name--"Ba-jiao". It is quite common in China. It was named for plants growing in cultivation on Hokkaido--which is just brutally cold in winter (but warm and humid enough in summer to suit ba-jiaos just fine). It also occurs on Sakhalin Island! A Russian banana. Contrary to rumor, Russian source Ba-Jiaos are no hardier than any other; they have been propagated almost exclusively from divisions and are almost all clones of each other.
Seedlings would have some merits. Among other things, more genetic variation--and possibly more vigor.
You asked what all the fuss is about. I suppose we should post some photos. I have a few decent ones I could post after uploading them somewhere. Unfortunately I don't have any photos of a really big Ba-jiao; maybe someone else does.
The above followup was added by Rob Wagner on June 08, 2005 at 8:40 am PST.
Thanks, Rob, that's great information
Well that explains a few things.
On a cold year, on average 1 out of every 5 years, regular bananas down here also last only until about mid-December. By then, usually temps dip below 32F at least once or twice. On the warm years, the bananas keep their leaves through the Winter. I can only speak of my location, even just 1 block down the hill the bananas fry every year.
Now staying green is one thing, but how green? Dwarf Orinoco gets all kinds of tiny brown spots on it, the leaves get shredded and yellowish, and since it pretty much stops growing, it looks like crap. Goldfinger is slightly better, but not much. Because of that, my wife has asked me to quarantine the bananas out of sight from the house. And I can't blame her, they really look crappy.
On the other hand, Ensete Ventricosum keeps on ticking, growing new fronds right through the Winter, even when daytime highs barely reach the mid-50's. And there is no sign of cold stress on the leaves, no dots, no nothing. They do fry when the air temp drops below 32F, but they recover very fast. Our cool Summers keep them going full blast.
From what you describe, sounds like Musa Bajoo also doesn't show any cold stress and might even keep growing all Winter here. Our Winter averages are somewhere in the high 50's. It's 61F at sea level, but I am at 500 feet elevation, so our Winter temps are slightly colder.
What I am looking for is good, edible bananas that have about the same cold tolerance as musa bajoo or ensete ventricosum. So far, misi luki and dwarf namwah both outperform the other bananas. I thought misi luki was edible.
I'd like to see pictures of musa bajoo. That would be nice.
Axel
The above followup was added by Axel on June 08, 2005 at 12:57 am PST.
Bananadelic
Rob, what do reckon my large red banana is called? Its on the urge of growing into a tree. These take time to grow tall, but have a hugh girth, leaf size and growth perimeter. It's a burgundy colour. Thanks for the detailed information on the Musas. Buenas noches, matt 10a P.S. The snails have been munching on my Musas, its hard to get rid of em.
The above followup was added by matt on June 08, 2005 at 5:41 pm PST.
musa pic
Here is a musa bajoo pic I found on the net. It is located somewhere in BC Canada. Its an older pic.
The above followup was added by Aaron, SherwoodOR on June 08, 2005 at 8:00 pm PST.
even better
That one really sucked. Here is a new pic from the Oregon Zoo.
The above followup was added by Aaron, SherwoodOR on June 08, 2005 at 8:07 pm PST.
Oregon Zoo, when?
Aaron,
This small grove is the one that made this native Portlander say, "I can grow those here?!?" The rest is history.
Is this pic isn't from this year, is it? I was at the Oregon Zoo a few weeks ago and they were just coming up. Maybe they had them in a greenhouse.
Next time I go, I'll post a pic of the Butia stump on the other side of the elephant house.
Bradley
The above followup was added by Bradley, PDX on June 08, 2005 at 8:19 pm PST.
portland palm site
Bradley,
I actually ripped this one off the portland palms website. http://www.portlandpalms.com/
Im not sure when they took it. They also have a couple of pics of some downtown. Ive gone by the location downtoen and havent seen them there. Here is another zoo shot. Hope they dont mind me copying the pics.
The above followup was added by Aaron, SherwoodOR on June 08, 2005 at 8:29 pm PST.
Downtown Portland
Aaron,
Yea, Ty has some great pics on the Portland Palms website. The bed at the hotel on the river front is really amazing in the summer. So is the one on Natio Parkway across from the Hilton hotel(?). The big 'Maurelii' spent the winter in the bed with significant protection and is looking great now.
Portland can't compare to Vancouver BC when it comes to public plantings of palms and bananas, but we're working on it.
Bradley
The above followup was added by Bradley, PDX on June 08, 2005 at 8:46 pm PST.
portland
Bradley,
I know where you mean across from the hotel there. They also have a trachycarpus in that bed and with the reddish looking banana. However you really dont see much else around the city of Portland. BC, especially Vancouver is making more of an effort with palms and subtropicals.
The above followup was added by Aaron, SherwoodOR on June 08, 2005 at 9:07 pm PST.
Cool-growing xparadisiacas
[I thought misi luki was edible.]
It sounds like it is. The catalog I found it in which suggested feeding them to animals was for a company in New Zealand. It might be a cultural thing--they feed oats and beets to animals too. Or, maybe, they have trouble ripening them; New Zealand can get pretty cool. But I found other web pages describing them in terms suggesting they are palatable to humans.
Have you tried Rajapuri? I would expect some of the most cool-growing bananas to be what they grow in the Himalayan foothills. Never tried one, but it has often been recommended for cooler climates.
I think they grow bananas in Madeira, which isn't exactly hot (except on the rare occassions it gets hit with a wind off the continent). I wonder what kind. I bet I can find out.
It is not surprising that Ensete ventricosum performs well for you; it grows cool in its native Ethiopian mountains at quite high elevations. I have heard the climate described as "12 months of spring". They are huge in habitat--they can hit 50 feet.
How are your nights? I know that parts of California have surprisingly chilly nights because of the dryness of the air. I think the water off your coast is pretty cool for the latitude, too.
I'll try to get a photo of one of my Ba-jiaos uploaded tonight.
If you want to experiment with one, maybe someone could send you one. I have no idea how it would react to your conditions. I used to live in the central valley of California, where short, inedible bananas are (or at least at that time were) rare but occassionally seen. I had no idea what they were--probably like the "horse bananas" of the southern states. Wild plantains most likely. They didn't seem to thrive, perhaps because it was a bit dry, especially in summer. I understand that your part of California is probably a bit rainier and certainly cooler.
The above followup was added by Rob Wagner on June 08, 2005 at 10:44 pm PST.
Matt's burgundy banana
Matt, I don't know, but I can take some educated guesses and you can fill me in on a few things. Where are you located? Are the stems red, the leaves red, or both? Here in Seattle there are only a few things we could possibly grow (that I am aware of) that are red.
One of them is Musa sikkimensis. It varies in the amount of red on the leaves but as soon as people found out it has red on the leaves they started selecting them for the amount of red. It is easy to spot, the leaves are splashed with red streaks, like the leaves of Musa zebrina, but M. zebrina would never get that big here. M. sikkimensis can get big. I haven't seen a really big one in Seattle yet (that doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I haven't seen them).
Ensete ventricosum comes in a red form called "Maurelii". The red form isn't as big as the green form--but it's still pretty big. You can always tell an Ensete because they don't clump like Musas do. The flower stalks look different, too. Now, I have seen big red Ensetes in Seattle. Must have been planted out big; I don't think you could raise one outdoors and get it that big this far north.
Sunset garden book says that Musa zebrina is a form of M. acuminata. That's probably true; Musa is a small genus. They also claim it is hardy to their USDA z8. It's another one with red-splashed leaves. I've only ever seen small potted specimens, not a big one. I don't know how to tell it apart from M. sikkimensis. Probably not as cool-growing or as hardy, tho.
The above followup was added by Rob Wagner on June 08, 2005 at 11:00 pm PST.
Bananagram
Thanks rob, I'm going to have to figure out how to post some pictures to clearify the exact variety. I thought I read something about this red variety being in its oun little catagory, but i'm not sure. I hope it doesn't rain today, again. It's been muggy here. Beunas Dias, matt 10a-Nor-CAl.
The above followup was added by matt on June 09, 2005 at 6:35 am PST.
Ensete Ventricosum 'Maurelli'-For matt
I hope it stops raining here too. Here's Purple E.ventricosum Maurelli in Manilla, and a few regular ones and some cannas, and Musella lasiocarpa.
Alex-I'm trading someone for M.misi luki, and Dwarf Namwah, and I bet it will be a way better match for this climate then M.basjoo.
The above followup was added by whitney on June 09, 2005 at 7:31 am PST.
again
..
The above followup was added by whitney on June 09, 2005 at 7:33 am PST.
pic of my ensetes two years ago...
May they R.I.P. as they were knocked off in Jan '04. As mentioned above, Ensete ventricosum is hard to beat for performance under cool conditions. It is not that frost hardy here in the PNW, however.
The above followup was added by Ryan, Philomath, OR on June 09, 2005 at 8:13 am PST.
Wow, nice pictures
Thanks everyone for all the pictures. Feel free to post more.
I would think Ensete Ventricosum is an excellent choice for the PNW.
Rob, nights are very cool here, about 45-55F in the Summer, 40-55F in Winter, with occasional 30's, and more rarely, upper 20's - for example the Winter of 1998-99. (We're Sunset zone 16, USDA zone 9b.) We've had a 42F low in mid-July before. Some sheltered coastal valleys here see frost in July. Highs average 60-85F Summer, and 55-75F Winter.
The main difference between Summer and Winter is the effect of the longer nights providing chill accumulation and dropping soil temperatures below 60F.Yet we don't get enough chill to grow cherries, I think one year I managed to pick one single cherry of my trees.
At the beginning of this week, the water temps dropped to 49F because of the upwelling caused by the NW winds off the coast. As you can imagine, it keeps things cool.
Rajapuri and the other so called cold tolerant bananas are cold tolerant in the sense that they can take occasional chill, but are really adapted to hotter climates. In the Central Valley of Calif, folks have succeeded with growing commercial sized fruits of bananas. The intense Summer heat pretty much guarantees ripening before the onset of Winter freezes.
On the coast, what we need to fruit bananas in this cool climate is a banana that grows and ripens fruits in our cool climate. hard freezes are rare, so if the banana continues to grow in cool weather, we can ripen fruit over a period of 12 months. But it's hit and miss, given that all it takes is a couple of hours below 32F to fry the leaves. Hopefully Misi Luki and dwarf namwah work.
Axel
The above followup was added by Axel on June 09, 2005 at 9:47 am PST.
Basjoo hardiness
Axel wrote thusly:
Wouldn't pretty much any banana be root hardy up in the PNW? They're root hardy to 20F, seems that would cover just about most locations up there provided they get mulched. is Musa Bajoo that much hardier?
--------------------
I live near Washington DC & have grown M. basjoo through 3 winters. This winter it got down to around 10 F more than once. My basjoo was heavily mulched. The psuedostems were frozen down to ground level. 6 weeks after the mulch was taken off, this plant is up to 6 ft in height. That's probably measly by your standards, but it shows how cold hardy this species can be.
Happy growing,
Dan
The above followup was added by Dan Gillespie on June 09, 2005 at 12:35 am PST.
Jedi Banana Masters
Ryan and Whitney, that's the red Banana I have! Thanks for solving the mystery, I've only reciently started growing Bananas since I moved to the coast. I must say Ryan, your Ensete Venticosum is very large and beautiful. How old is it, and what do you feed it? Also, what precautions are taken in winter? Your in zone 8b, correct? With great Banana respect ,Matt 10a
The above followup was added by matt on June 09, 2005 at 6:07 pm PST.
Dunesbury Bananas
Whitney, I like your coastal jungle. Looks like you're on the dunes, by Manilla. It appears your garden is protected by some dunes in the back area as well. Is that Pinus Contortus in the background? Your Ensete, look very happy and protected. My Ensete is about the same size, but a little wind damaged. Thanks for the information on this variety. I also wanted to know how old your bananas are, and how they do during our wind and cold snaps? The sun came out today! Paradise captured! Matt 10a
The above followup was added by matt on June 09, 2005 at 6:24 pm PST.
Hey Matt
I'm not sure what type of pine it is. It was planted as a wind block along time ago, now they aren't so great for planting under. It's not actually on the dunes just on one large dune right on the bay. We had to plant alot of bamboo to create a good screen from the strong winds coming off the bay.
Most of the green Ensetes on in the pics are two years old from seed, but one planted in the ground of the same age is about three times that size. The purple ones are 2 years old from one gallon, but they too are stunted from being in pots.
They seem to have minimal leaf burn this last winter, while all the edible bananas lost their leaves. Seems like the more cold hardy ones like M.basjoo, and M.sikkimensis keep there leaves while edibles lose theirs. Eureka seems to be in a different zone than out there on the peninsula.
Today was a great day! Very warm and humid.
The above followup was added by whitney on June 09, 2005 at 6:54 pm PST.
Kenetic Banana
Whitney, did you catch the Kenetic sculpture race. My wife and I love it, our friends raced in it. I walked passed a house w/ a nice M. Bajoo in Manila, by the Manila community center. There is also a house on the bay side w/ very impressive 20-30 year old P.Canaries, there must be 4 or 5 of them. You're more 10a than I am down there. I have a smigeon of 9b here in town. Matt
The above followup was added by matt on June 09, 2005 at 7:26 pm PST.
Missed it this year
I was kinda bummed that I missed the sculpture race this year. Last year I watched it in Manilla.
Yeah I saw that basjoo. It looks like it is growing in dune sand, and those P.canerinsis are really neat. I wonder why they planted them like that. It looks like they were growing them for a edible date farm or something.
Since the local nurseries have been selling bananas lately, they seem to be popping up around town. Soon they will be everywhere.
The Longs Drugs in Arcata, and a few others HAVE sold alot of bananas in the past few years. They sold out twice and had about 20-30 one gallon bananas a couple years ago. It's pretty cool that the nurseries are selling more tropicals, rather than just more Rhodiedendrons.
The above followup was added by whitney on June 09, 2005 at 10:03 pm PST.
Cypress island
Some months ago I was driving behind a truck in Petaluma carring several huge clumps of Bajoo stumps and roots. looks like they were going to the dump in Marin. It was unfortunate that I wasn't in the position to stop them and save them. Cotoniaster is taking over my back yard, must be from the birds. I'm going to have to till my yard eventually; I was thinking of getting some palms or maybe Ensetes growing, maybe to sell, maybe not. I 'll need to do a fair amount of work in the back yard to start them.
I love the Monterey Cypress island in the bay, dotted w/ white from the Egrets, that little spot is majestic. Buenas dias, matt
The above followup was added by matt on June 10, 2005 at 6:31 am PST.
Bananas for Tasmania Australia
Hi...I saw yoyur website and thought that you could provide me with some info...I live in Hobart Tasmania Australia..and we do not have any cold growing bananas down here...they have now (only this year) imported a warm weather banana to be kept indoors but nothing of a cooler growing variety...it remains generally above 36 degrees at night here although it will get below freezing at times...any suggestions on what varieties to grow and where do I get them as we dont have any down here?...cheers John PS I used to live in Fort Bragg California and Seattle so I know your weather profiles
The above followup was added by John Marmarinos on June 22, 2005 at 5:48 pm PST.
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