13 000+ Feb 03 hits on the BC palms website
Most common visitors:
US by far
Canada
Belgium
France
UK
The activity is very strong since Nigel has accused me of being a Takil terminator from Canada on the Palm Center (UK) message board. I guess that many Europeans are reading our posts and then looking at the BC site since the Takil affair started here.
I requested a hit count since other users of the server were saying that the BC palms site generated an unusual amount of traffic.
I have made a Tropic to Tropic segment. I want to make a Foxglove segment and I’m working on a Las Palmas Norte segment. Ray has seen his segment and seems to like it.
The following thread was started by Denis -Victoria, BC z8b on February 13, 2003 at 8:46 am PST
Soon the world will know about all of our west coast Palms! Cheers, Joe
The above followup was added by Joe, Salt Spring Island on February 13, 2003 at 3:36 pm PST.
Send me your mailing address, and I'll send you one of my cards. Cheers, Joe
The above followup was added by Joe, Salt Spring Island on February 13, 2003 at 3:43 pm PST.
Denis, yes I did refer to you as the takil terminator as your response to a request to be scientific was to increase the contamination. I could have called you Dennis the menace I suppose, but given the confusion that reigned after an american nurseryman mislabelled waggy seed as takil seed some years back, I can only envisage total confusion and termination of true takils in canada when 1000,s of seed is distributed as takil. I find 2 things stupendous, the first is that canadians dont apparently care what they grow (a conclusion reached due to the deathly silence from most palm `experts` on here) ,the second is the way in which you refuse to be scientific, especially when if the trachys are as huge and distinctive as you say they are they could conceivably be a new species, for which you would get the credit. Anyhow, Martin Gibbons will now know what is happening being the moderator of the palm centre forum, so I intend to drop the subject and cease visiting this board. I wish to apologise to those few that I have corresponded with over the last year or so for getting involved in this ugly dispute. I correspond with many palmnuts all over the world and always find them very willing to share experiences and findings etc. Unfortunately Dennis would not correspond with me so I challenged him publicly and you know the rest. For those that correspond with me by email please keep in touch., I would love to continue to hear how your gardens grow!!
The above followup was added by Nigel Kembrey on February 13, 2003 at 6:02 pm PST.
Nigel, I know what Denis is saying!! I think his observations are mostly correct. I have seen takils in Native habitiat and they fit his descriptions at least 90%!!
I think we may have a few on the Island or Takil crossed plams, like he says!!! We also have many waggies ( Tojuro). those are quite obvious!!!
This isn't an anal Scientific forum nigel! just go along with Denis I trust his jugment!!! He can always explain how he came to this conclusion in more detail for you !!!
The above followup was added by Ichiro_sasaki Z9a on February 13, 2003 at 6:41 pm PST.
I think we should raise enough money for me to go to India and China with my digital camera to look at Trachys and settle this once and for all! Except that some of us don't seem to trust me when it comes to identifying palms either.
The above followup was added by Ian on February 13, 2003 at 7:50 pm PST.
You'll need extra money just in case camera repairs are required.
The above followup was added by Barrie at Las Palmas Norte (Lantzville) on February 13, 2003 at 7:56 pm PST.
It is irresponsible to distribute that seed as Takil until it is proven as such. I do not doubt that the seed came from beautiful and big Trachys in China. They should be labeled as a Trachy followed by the province they were collected. Please be responsible, Denis, somewhere down the line the seed you are handing out will make it into the hands of someone who will sell these plants to the world as Takils.
The above followup was added by Ryan Johnson, Philomath, OR on February 13, 2003 at 9:02 pm PST.
Hey Nigel..
Well you have some points there...and i agree...i hope that i might correspond with you via palms..i have spoken to you a few times here on the palm message board...and if you do not feel the need to correspond on here that is acceptable...but i would say Nigel dont let someone spoil your fun on here...keep coming back and respond when you are able to..its always nice to hear experiences from others around the world...so i indeed hope you stay and respond...hope your doing well..
John
The above followup was added by John on February 13, 2003 at 10:02 pm PST.
A forum like this would be boring if we were all just one big happy family and never had disagreements. But while debate is expected, we need to keep board policy in mind and avoid ad hominem attacks (attack the idea, but not the person). The NW Palms board has more class than most of the other chat sites out there and hopefully we can keep it that way.
I understand Nigel's complaint about the different ethic in seed labeling and distribution between the English-Australian-New Zealand tradition for full detail and the North American what's-the-big-deal indifference to taxonomical minutiae and the possibiliy of at least minor mislabeling. If you've ever ordered palm seed from England or eucalyptus seed from Australia, you know how much care is taken with taxonomy and provenance.
In my view, the best protocol for labeling seed whose specific identity contains a shadow of a doubt is to use the convention of following the genus name by "sp." (species uncertain) followed by "aff." (shows affinity to) followed by what it seems like it might be, followed by the provenance. That puts the risk of assumption in the hands of the recipient, where it belongs.
(e.g. Trachycarpus sp., aff. takil, provenance: Zhuo Xiang, China)
The above followup was added by Steve in Bismarck on February 13, 2003 at 10:49 pm PST.
Two IPS members are germinating the Chinese Trachy seeds. If they come up to me and say T. Takil X Fortunei –fine with me. This will encourage me to bring more seeds from Trachys sporting the twist at the leaf base. If they say pure Takil then Gibbons is really clear on describing Takil. I don’t need to name palms since the IPS can. They will ultimately decide. I leave it to them. All I did was harvest Waggie seeds and seeds from Trachys with twisted hostulas. I want to introduce thousands of foreign Trachy seeds (not T Fortunei –we have many in BC) to BC. No one can (or will) stop me. I will give the seeds to IPS palm growers. They are in charge of the official botanical names. They can call them whatever.
I’ll just end up with Trachys with Takil features. I’ll be happy with that. :O)
Nigel if you can’t trust the IPS. Who can you trust? I trust Joe and Jeff. I think that Ichiro is actually the man to consult on Trachys. He is more familiar with Asian palms.
All I’m doing is introducing seeds from other countries. I trust IPS members. They will name the new palms.
This is just the beginning. Nigel has encouraged me to bring not hundreds but thousands of seeds. In Victoria the plan is to have my Waggies produce a large amount of seeds for BC. These seeds will go to three greenhouses in BC for production in large quantities.
Then my Chinese Trachy specimen can follow into production when they are ready.
I will intentionally hybridize T Fortunei with Wagnerianus. I will harvest seeds from a female Waggie. I will then attempt to hybridize a Trachy (with Takil bood) with a Waggie.
My generation likes to experiment with genetics. We should explore the possibilities.
Cheers to all.
The above followup was added by Denis -Victoria, BC z8b on February 14, 2003 at 4:28 am PST.
Denis,
This is the first I have heard of any of this conversation. I do however get concerned with true T. takils being intentionally hybridized with T. fortunei. I have T. takil, T. latisectus, and Trashycarpus all planted in my garden but will never distribute seed off of these being that the seed may be some unintentional hybrid. Do you know who at IPS is doing the I.D.?
The above followup was added by Jay in Shelton on February 14, 2003 at 5:52 am PST.
I have a few nice little Trachy. hybrids in my garden. Hey, a palm is a palm, that's the way I see it. Does it really matter if they hybridize? Eucs. do it all the time. Cheers, Joe
The above followup was added by Joe, Salt Spring Island on February 14, 2003 at 6:07 am PST.
Some get hung up on the text book purity of palms. This is the real world, where plants and trees hybridize. Just how pure are the so called wild takils? We know the basics, let's go from there. Recently a nursery sold T.wagnerianus as T.fortunei. They didn't know the difference. We do, that is the difference.
The above followup was added by Barrie at Las Palmas Norte (Lantzville) on February 14, 2003 at 6:21 am PST.
Hey, how about shairing some seeds down here, Please!
The above followup was added by Roger, Olympia on February 14, 2003 at 10:23 am PST.
read :
"2. Trachycarpus takil. From a few locations in northern India, very rare now in the wild as most trees have been cut down for the fibre. Enormous confusion caused by a simple photograph of T. wagnerianus in James McCurrach's 1960 'Palms of the World' which was captioned T. takil. Confusion still reigns, especially in the USA. T. takil is very similar in appearance to T. fortunei, and only subtle differences separate them. lt seems that the difference is more geographical than physical, the populations are a very long way from China. Very rare in cultivation too. Sorry, but if you think you may have a T. takil in your garden, you almost certainly don't. I don't think any seeds have come out of India between 1887 when some were sent to Beccari in Florence (his description was based on one of the resulting plants) and a couple of years ago when Toby and I sent back a few thousand from Naini Tel where they are cultivated. Imagine our feelings when, after all our care and hard work, those we sold to a seed dealer were re-distributed as 'Trachycarpus takil/ wagnerianus'! Maddening! Almost certainly the most cold-hardy in the genus, and the fastest-growing. See Principes 37 (1) 1993"
takil and the twist in the hastula is not always true , I've got here fortunei's here with 5 normal leaves and 2 leaves with a twist in the hastula ???
Takil Blood ?? maybe ??
sometimes when a fortunei has stress , he will grow leaves with a twist in the hastula, sometimes if the spear is pulled out you get this to !!
Look to this one also a strange leaf :
http://community.webshots.com/image5/2/0/39/62720039Izsuua_fs.jpg
ore go to my webshots at :
http://community.webshots.com/user/jamesverhaegen
and select : Tuin van Johan Raps
The twist in the hastula is not a characteristic thing off takil
kind regards
from Belgium
The above followup was added by James Belgium on February 14, 2003 at 5:33 pm PST.
Well quoted James . While there is no harm hybridisng, and this does produce very good plants ,we musnt lose site of the original populations in the wild otherwise in a very short time there will be just a single trachycarpus species which will be very dull for all of us. Some of these species are already endangered.
The above followup was added by paul on February 14, 2003 at 5:57 pm PST.
The only true seed will come from isolated stands in the wild, hundreds of miles from other species. Anything that we grow in Europe or Canada can never be certain to produce pure seed due to the proximity of similar species. This is why it is so important to correctly record, identify and preserve those species still growing in their natural habitat to preserve the species and ensure the continued production of true seed.
The above followup was added by Nigel Kembrey on February 14, 2003 at 7:14 pm PST.
Read this:
--------------
By Martin Gibbons and Tobias W. Spanner
“Remaining in the wild in just one tiny, heavily altered location in the Sikkim Himalayas in north-east India, which is immediately threatened by destruction, it has only recently been introduced into cultivation, but is about to make a huge impression in the palm world. It is so big and bold, so distinctive, ----so cold-hardy----, and so beautiful, it should, by rights, leave T. fortunei standing, in the popularity stakes. Also, it is probably the only species in the genus which, owing to its wide altitude range from 1200 to 2400 m (3950 to 7900 ft), will adapt well to hotter regions.”
URL:
http://www.plantapalm.com/vpe/palmkey/trachykey.htm
--------------
Well…why are small Latisectus palms dying of cold in the SE US? If it is so cold hardy why do people have a harder time growing a T Latisectus? I question European claims. Can I trust James? Is he a palm Guru? Does he back Gibbons & Spanner 100% ?
Are those claims 100% true? James can make claims about Asia. I can’t? I’ve been to Asia just like Ichiro. Did James see Asia for himself? Does he know what we have in BC? I’m supposed to get criticism for wanting Takils here? I want to bring them here and I’m called a terminator. If names go wrong it’s not my fault. BC IPS members will rename the seedlings as they see accordingly if they deem so. I know that IPS members may make mistakes but I must stand by their labelling. A rose is still a rose by any other name.
I can question these guys. Europeans screwed up Takil’s purity when the seeds came to Europe. My seeds are not from Europe, they are from Asia. Euro blood is very unlikely. China does not need the west to tell it what to do or think. They get their own palms by their own means in China. It’s not a backwards country like most Westerners think. They have their own palm growers independent of the West. Japan has its own means too.
Waggies are rare? That’s what rarepalmseeds.com says. Maybe in Europe but not in Japan. Are they correct saying this? What would Ichiro have to say?
Paul talks about sanity. How ironic. I remember his garden demon post. He’s just taking sides in this to peeve people this board. You know if you’re not happy James, go join Nigel on a European board where you can slam this board. You should discuss how Europeans ruined true Takil blood.
I am not worried about purity. Joe, Barrie, Jeff or any top BC IPS member would make sure that a true Takil blood would stay pure. They have nice Waggies. Yes they will hybridize some but they will keep many Waggies true. That’s what they do. Collect while keeping purity and explore new things in the meantime.
Let BC IPS members place a verdict on the labelling of seedlings produced by my seeds.
It’s quite noble of some people to worry about purity. IPS members here will assure that if they can. This heat is good for BC palms. Nigel’s criticism has brought a lot of attention to BC palms. I can’t hate Nigel for boosting ratings. James being so interested about my seeds brings on the question. Do I really have something? Mother Nature will tell.
Let those palms carrying twisted hostulas spread on the BC coast. I have a lot of seeds to spread. Keep ‘em growing Joe. It’s a long future ahead of us.
-Denis
The above followup was added by Will the heat cool or rise? on February 14, 2003 at 7:39 pm PST.
Dennis you are fortunate to have explored China for that I envy you. I do agree that you may have something, and if I am honest I hope that you do, because it would be a good thing. My only real criticism of you is that your enthusiasm is ahead of the game, please call them Trachy Dennisensis or something until their identity is proven!!! I also hope they are takils because the last proven stand in India is teetering on the brink of extinction, not sure how the europeans are responsible for that though!
The above followup was added by Nigel Kembrey on February 14, 2003 at 8:30 pm PST.
For future reference - when some of us start to have several species of Trachycarpus in the garden, we can just cut the inflorescences off all but the desired species one year, to get pure seed of one species.
The above followup was added by Ian on February 14, 2003 at 8:39 pm PST.
* First off all I don't attack you Denis
* second , we live in 2003 not in the dark ages, if I jump on a plane I go also to China , ....
if I want seeds from you do you think that I would not can get them ??, even in China !
Do you have prinseps ?, do you want them ?
please stop to think that it's impossible to get them, I know a lot off people , you probable also, and with the internet , you get the point, I'm not so good with words .
but I'm not talking about hardness here like You about the latisectus, yet it's true it's a difficult palm tree , and yes it's not so hardy here , but at is original place ??
Sabal minor is a super hardy palm tree , why dies it sometimes in Belgium ??
the seeds off Europe takil are NOT from Europe !!
Just call them trachycarpus Dennisensis like Nigel says so ore like Steve example, write the place down from were they are from, and write the experience down off the palms .
fortunei X wagie, exist al ready in Belgium and Europe
I think that you don't like , rare palm seeds ?
" This is just the beginning. Nigel has encouraged me to bring not hundreds but thousands of seeds. In Victoria the plan is to have my Waggies produce a large amount of seeds for BC. These seeds will go to three greenhouses in BC for production in large quantities.
Then my Chinese Trachy specimen can follow into production when they are ready"
I see that you are willing to populate the whole country over there ?
maybe if you call them trachycarpus takil it will sell better ?
James
The above followup was added by James Belgium on February 14, 2003 at 10:03 pm PST.
If sanity is passing on seeds of an unknown identity then yes im insane !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The above followup was added by paul on February 15, 2003 at 10:59 am PST.
I’m not selling the seeds. I don’t want money from this hobby. I get plants. James do you understand this now? I have never sold one seed.
I brought the seeds because they are not from T Fortunei. The point is that I want to bring new Trachy blood here. We have room in BC. And I want to see as many Trachys as there are flowers in Victoria. (BTW, that’s a huge number.) Is it wrong for me to hand out seeds? No.
So Paul is saying that the guys here are crazy for accepting my seeds? Well Joe knows that I’m not some punk kid from Europe. If they turn out to be the wrong kind, they can be used as regular Trachys. If my seeds prove to be true, then Joe is smart to have tried them. It cost him nothing to get and try the seeds. Paul: the people who take my seeds are experienced Trachy growers. They can label my seeds accordingly. They have good eyes.
I just tell them what I saw. They just take note.
I don’t hate rarepalmseeds.com. I think that they exaggerate on cold hardiness. They are selling. I’m not. The idea of IPS members selling seeds is a good thing.
The IPS members here will produce palms from my seeds. I grab a few palms if I need some and they do whatever they want with the thousands of other seedlings. I don’t need to search for T Princeps. I’ll wait to see how it does here. T Princeps seedlings are here already. I just need to pay someone a visit a few km away if I want one some day. I can just ask to have specimen reserved for me.
That's it. It ends here. Free seeds. Palms will be identified by IPS members. No harm done.
Cheers
The above followup was added by Denis -Victoria,BC on February 17, 2003 at 5:45 am PST.
The more the marrier...!!! :-) I want to see this too Denis!!
motto yashi ga areba,ii noni ne!!!
The above followup was added by Ichiro_sasaki Z9a on February 19, 2003 at 2:02 am PST.