Northwest Palms

How cold will it get?

I think we can safely say that it will be colder next week. The big questions is how. The answer to that question will determine how effort I put into protection. Eviron. Canada says Victoria will only get to 0C. A Seattle forecast says -4C on Sunday night. CFAX radio (Victoria) says -3C to -4C. My experience says that a few degrees either side of those forecasts could be the truth. If it is on the low side, I definitely need to apply protection. If they are accurate or too low, then I don't need to do much.

What forecast would you believe at this point (you may have another)?

The following thread was started by Jeff, Victoria, BC, 8b on December 23, 2004 at 10:21 am PST

We've been watching the same pattern with great interest since it would have threatened Central California with a hard freeze.

As of this Morning, all models are in agreement, and it doesn't look that cold anymore. When different models agree, then it means the forecast confidence level is pretty high. Even the snow might get removed from the forecast at this point. Since I am not familar with Northwest conditions, I can't tell you if it will freeze or not, but at least there won't be a massive artic outbreak.

Of course, things could still change.

Here's what the NWS Seattle says:

"LATEST GFS DELAYS COLD AIR UNTIL MONDAY...AND NOT ALL THAT COLD
EITHER. COLD AIR APPEARS TO BE SLIPPING EAST OF CASCADES OR EVEN
EAST OF ROCKIES...LIKE IT DOES 9 OUT OF 10 TIMES. WILL HAVE TO TAKE
A GOOD LOOK AT THIS LATER TODAY...AND COULD RESULT IN REMOVAL OF
SNOW CHANCE NEXT WEEK. SYSTEM TUE OR WED NOW LOOKS COMPLETELY
WARM...JUST RAIN. BURKE "

Axel

The above followup was added by Axel on December 23, 2004 at 10:53 am PST.

I only wrap the plants that need it. In late October I wrap my tree fern and banana canes. I also throw a piece of plastic over the Brahea. Everyhting else is on it's own as usual.Let the cold come, I'm always prepared for it. Joe

The above followup was added by Joe, SSI on December 23, 2004 at 12:24 am PST.

Given your mild location, what you do is hardly advice for most of us :-)

I would like to know how you protect your tree fern for the winter?

The above followup was added by Jeff, Victoria, BC, 8b on December 23, 2004 at 12:33 am PST.

Since I just moved into my house last spring, and my plants have only been in the ground for a matter of months, I have a few concerns.

Joe claims that he does not protect things until necessary. I like this idea because I think it's probably better to not have a pile of damp (our lovely wet climate :) leaves sitting around and on my palms for weeks.

Anyhow, I have trachies (fortuneis, waggies and one takil), one jubaea and one chamaerops in the ground. What sort of protection should each type of plant have if the temp drops, and at what forecasted temperature should move into action?

I was thinking that if the temp moves much below zero (like -3 or lower) I should mulch the jub and med fan palm as well as wrap them with bubblewrap. (Because they are not mature and they have not been in the ground for long.) I would do the same for the trachies at a temp of -5c or lower.

Too lax or too conservative? Protection methods OK? Opinions are much appreciated.

By the way, here at my place in Beach Grove I've only seen temps or 0C twice so far, with nothing really below freezing. (I have seen frost at these temps, interestingly though.)

M

The above followup was added by Marc from Tsawwassen on December 23, 2004 at 12:37 am PST.

I think your ideas are close to what is best. A deciding factor can be wind. Without it I would say at or above -5C doesn't need much protection except for maybe your Jubaea (protect if -3C or lower). If there is wind, since your palms on your list may be small and aren't established, I would protect them if the temp goes -3C or lower.

When the T. fortunei, T. takil, and Waggies are established, I wouldn't worry about them until -11C. I would protect the C. humilis and Jubaea at -7C when established.

For very cold weather (established tender palms and -6C or lower with wind) I use mini x-mas lights spiraled around the spear and then wrapped with burlap (other insulation is fine). If it is much above this temp then a bit of burlap is OK. I should mention that I tie up the fronds of tender plants in fall which makes it easier to protect them.

Lastly, I would have winter rain covers on your palms while they are young.

When the forecast is for temps just above plants needing protection, it can be a tough call. They can be wrong and the temp drop several degrees below what they said.

The above followup was added by Jeff, Victoria, BC, 8b on December 23, 2004 at 3:26 pm PST.

The advice you give makes sense to me. One clarifying question, though. You say I should have rain protection; should I protect my trachies from rain? Do you mean my chamaerops and Jubaea? I thought trachies liked moisture... That being said, the weird thing is I am unsure of my drainage. I am in a flood plain, and I am sure the water levels are quite high, but my yard is all sand....totally sand. Anyhow, Barrie may be able to comment on Beach Grove drainage since he knows South Delta very well... It appears to have good drainage.

And one more question...at -6C or below you say you use Christmas lights. Do you worry about the palm's spears being burned at all?

Last question? What do you consider "established"? I am thinking this means about 24 months in the ground. Right?

M

The above followup was added by Marc from Tsawwassen on December 23, 2004 at 4:54 pm PST.

Rain covers benefit any palm, including T. fortunei, in out climate. If we don't get temps below about -5C you shouldn't have trouble with spear damage on the hardy Trachycarpus species, so they "tolerate" some rain. Because yours are small I would definitely add a rain cover. I think it makes them more cold hardy and after spear cold damage it helps prevent fungus problems.

If you don't have standing water about a day after constant heavy rain, then your drainage is fine for Trachycarpus. It still may be too wet for desert species of palms, but if you have sand, it may be OK. You may want to consider raised beds for the dry loving species.

The mini Christmas lights don't put out enough heat to burn, unless possible you wrap the same spot too many times. During an Arctic outbreak I don't believe they are even close to producing too much heat.

I consider established to be two growing seasons. Having said that, if you just plant a seedling, it still may need some protection, especially if it isn't a hardy Trachycarpus species.

The above followup was added by Jeff, Victoria, 8B on December 23, 2004 at 6:53 pm PST.

I have never protected a T.fortunei here yet and I planted the first ones as seedling size on SSI in March 1989 after the big freeze. Chamaerops I wouldn't think of protecting unless temps. were forcast to dip down below -8 Celsius or so. I have never protected C.humils here and even the seedlings I planted a decade ago have been just fine. We just haven't had a really cold weather in a long time, at least what I consider to be cold. In early Feb. 1989 we got hit with severe cold. With prolonged cold temps. that we experienced back then I would protect as much stuff as I could. Cordylines for sure, and even small T.fortunei would get some help. I just hope that it will be sometime before we see any temps. down to -11 or -12 Celsius. At temps. that low most of the stuff I grow would suffer. Joe

The above followup was added by Joe, SSI on December 23, 2004 at 8:21 pm PST.

That's really good information. Thanks, Jeff. At this point, I don't have time to build A-frame rain protection for my plants.... But I will make sure to protect them using those lower limits and with the methods described.

M

The above followup was added by Marc from Tsawwassen on December 23, 2004 at 9:42 pm PST.

I would agree with Jeff, other than to say that I have never protected my Trachies from rain, and we get 250 wet days a year in the UK and at least as many frosts if not more.
It is essential to give small newly planted palms rain covers for the first year or two, although this need diminishes with size.
As for Jubaea I dont think you need worry below -5C ,personally I am concerned about trapping moisture in a Jubaea crown by wrapping, so I suspend a fleece sheet overhead to prevent radiational freezing if severe cold is forecast, and its always worked so far. I see -8C most winters.

The above followup was added by Nigel on December 23, 2004 at 11:15 pm PST.

I don't think your experience necessarily reflects that of myself (and this Marc). Last year, at -8C I had spear damage on some of my Waggies. Nothing serious but damage none the less. I lost a spear on a T. takil. Another small takil may have died completely (still some green, but it didn't grow last summer). My two C. humils had spear damage, but recovered. None of the above had rain covers. I didn't think it necessary, but now know better. You have three advantages over me in winter: You don't get as cold; you have well draining gravel soil; and you don't get the cold north winds during ARctic outbreaks. I suspect Marc is in a similar situation as me (likely even colder) so I think that the extra protection, when temps warrant it, is a benefit.

Marc: My rain covers are simply pieces of plywood on three legs. My experience is that enclosed rain covers, unless you remove them frequently on nice days, can do more harm than good due to humidity.

The above followup was added by Jeff, Victoria, BC, 8B on December 24, 2004 at 10:07 am PST.

Jeff, there are many factors that one has to take into consideration when the cold snap strikes and how it can affect certain species. Poorly drained soil , distance from the ocean and exposure to cold east or north winds. My property mostly consists of sandstone and shale, and if I would pick a hole in it and pour a bucket of water in, it would disappear right before your eyes. The drainage here is sometimes to good, and in the Summer that creates a big problem, but in the Winter it works well. Nearly 10 years ago Larry Wick brought me over a T.wagnerianus seedling (only one leaf) I planted it outdoors right away and it has thrived never showing signs of stress or cold damage. My garden is on a south west slope and is surrounded by forest, and the ocean is only 900'ft away across road to the east and on the other side less than a mile. My low temp. last January was 21.2 F. or -6.1 Celsius. It is interesting , because the same species in planted in poor draining soil would definately suffer in such low temps. only because of stress. if you can keep them out of the nasty winds and plant them in well drained soil they should be able to tolerate colder temps. without to much problem. However from what I've seen over the years, T.wagnerianus is much more wind resistant than T.fortunei, but less cold tolrant. I do like the looks of them better, and I was very impressed of how many you had thriving in you amazing palm garden. Looks like a green Christmas is in store for the west coast, but that is expected. Cheers, Joe

The above followup was added by Joe, SSI on December 24, 2004 at 12:07 am PST.

Thanks for the advice. I agree that rain covers are helpful. You simply make a t-pee type structure? And, I would assume your climate is slightly drier. I get about 880ml per year. And for cold, I would think that your location in Victoria would be a bit milder, but was surprised by the data from Env. Canada. I seemed to depend on where the cold came from. If I came through the valley Delta would suffer more, but if it came from the north more directly then it could affect Victoria more. All in all I believe the Victoria area to be milder...and that the Inner Harbor is the mildest location of all...

Anyhow, the advice (from Jeff and Nigel and Joe) is appreciated!

M

The above followup was added by Marc from Tsawwassen on December 24, 2004 at 12:24 am PST.

Marc: Don't get fancy here. If I have a 2' tall palm, I tie the petioles together around the spear, as tight as I can. I then put about a 2' square piece of plywood overtop (flat roof) and taper it in the most advantagous direction to drain the rain away. With three legs to hold it up, it consists of 4 pieces of wood.

Drive the legs (about 2" square posts) about 8" down, depending on how solid your soil is. I use galvanized nails to hold the roof on the legs, not hammering them all the way in. This makes it easier to take them off.

I hope this helps.

The above followup was added by Jeff, Victoria, 8B on December 24, 2004 at 1:41 pm PST.

For my Brahea edulis I throw a piece of 6mm plastic over it to create a simple roof. The shelter is open on all four sides. I also wrap the trunk with burlap. By keeping this palm dry in the Winter it has survived since Oct. 1995. I'm impressed with this species. Joe

The above followup was added by Joe, SSI on December 24, 2004 at 9:03 pm PST.